I use the letters a-f and A-F to represent dozenal numbers in my own math figures, anyone else that have made up 'imaginary' symbols? Of course...

f.ffff + a.baEb = f.AAdA
ba.e + D.Fc = bE.dc
cd.f - bb.C = bb.D

The reasons that I using non-numbers is that it feels more natural. If it's only for your own behalf, you can use any symbols you want. 0-9 are for decimal representation and A&B, T&E aso are only complements that gives a simple way to represent the dozenal numbers for people that haven't heard of any other base numbering systems.

Since I (two yrs ago) started to get a feeling for this, I doing all my calculations on paper, not that all bad because then I can start to refresh my math knowledge (even if if felt like starting over fron elementary school-level again) ^_^

I've just been adding a modified 6 for ten and a mirrored 3 for elv...

0123456789ΧƐ

But often I'm lazy and use "A" and "B" instead: It's a convention I'm used to as a computer programmer.

Mine is:

I quite like Tesseract's symbol for ten, but find it easier to write if it's reflected (bit like the letter "h").

The good thing about flipping that ten symbol the way Tesseract does is that it's less likely to be confused with 6. I just might adopt it, though it'll take a little while to get used to it.


Another thing is that...

...reminds me of a portion of a right-facing swastika. Tesseract's ten symbol doesn't have that problem.

Even better would be this:

Do you prefer hexadecimal, or are you just suggesting those digits for any base up to 2^4?

guys this looks like gene zirkels proposal

The system just naturally reaches Base-16. I didn't try to limit it to dozenal.
And who's Gene? It's based off someone on this forum's proposal. Improved upon.

Tesseract I like how you are using your number system for your signature and avatar. :rolleyes:

However I do not like your zero as it looks like a minus sign. I would use the side bars and the top and bottom but not the middle bar so you get a 0.

The original system, Gene's, had the powers going from bottom right clockwise to top right.

You could do any number of things similar to that.




Clusters of four solid and empty dots would work, too.

I use a reversed 6 for dek (Unicode 2202) and reversed 3 for el (Unicode 0190). They are easily recognized as numbers, and they resemble the first letters of their names ([doHTML]∂ek and Ɛl[/doHTML]).

I know there is probably a good reason not to use the dek symbol, but it works for me.

[dohtml]0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ∂ Ɛ[/dohtml]

It's the partial differential sign, which has frequent use in calculus.

OTOH, using an X-like symbol for ten would interfere with x's frequent use a variable name, or with the multiplication sign ×.

I just haven't seen a "ten" symbol I really like.

What is the matter with an upside down 4. Just flip a 4, don't rotate it, just mirror it in a horizontal line. This cannot easily be confused with any other digit or with any letter. Likewise it doesn't conflict with any other symbols that I am familiar with. Lastly, it looks like a digit and it's easy to write. Just a straight line down, a diagonal up to the left for half the height of the character space, then a horizontal line to the right crossing the vertical line. This can be written without lifting the pen/pencil. Lastly, it can easily be created in all existing character sets by simply mirroring the existing 4 vertically.

Try it!

Hmm...it looks nicely distinct on paper, but how do I type it?

Sorry?

As with any new proposed character that does not yet exist, it needs to be designed, but as I said, it should be fairly straightforward if one starts with the existing "4" and just flips it. I don't have any software for font design or I would do it myself. As to where to include it in the character set, I am open to suggestions.

There is one other thing to consider, that being which keys on the keyboard should be co-opted for 10* and 11*. So that existing characters with their current uses are not disrupted, the "/" and "*" on the numeric keypad could be co-opted but that removes their use as divison and multiplication operators. The next alternative is to assign CTRL "/" and CTRL "*" as 10* and 11*. This causes problems with those same characters on the main keyboard. Like wise the minus/dash (-_) and equal/plus (=+) keys on the main keyboard would have the same problem when used on the numeric keypad. The only alternative I can suggest that doesn't include extra keys, is to use CTRL "0" and CTRL "1" for 10* and 11*.

The only other ways would be to include two more keys on the keyboard and keypad, or use a keyboard that has displays on every key (or at least those that need to change), with appropriate changes to the keycode generated as specified by the user. There is such a keyboard now, but it is far too expensive except for cash rich geeks or genuine scholars of ancient and lost languages for whom such a keyboard would be a boon.

PS Dan, you may find the word document titled "Symbols" in my post of Jul 12 2006, 10:58 AM on page 4 of the thread titled "Symbols for TEN and ELEVEN? " of interest. You posted some comments yourself. Perhaps it may be useful to review that thread. I can agree with your assessment of the seven segment character identified as M) in the list "M) Looks like Gamma", it does look like a gamma. However, as for the character labelled I), you said it was "I) Awkward to write". As I said in reply, was that it was not my suggestion that the written version would be identical to the seven segment representation, but just as the normal written four is depicted differently on the seven segment display so would the inverted 4. So to write the upside down 4 would as easy as the right side up character.

Perhaps if we took all the suggestions and all the criteria for assessing them, agreeing a scoring paradigm would allow us to reduce the list of candidates to say, three, then take a vote of members both our own and our US cousins. PS does that give members of both groups two votes? icarus?

Sorry; should've been more clear. What I meant was, is there an existing character that looks enough like your proposal that I could use it on this forum, like I do with Χ and Ɛ occasionally?

However, I thought you meant

but apparently, you mean

which answers that particular question (just use "h").

Well, obviously, the code points should be U+003A and U+003B, so the twelve digits will be consecutive ;) Unfortunately, those are already taken by the colon and semicolon.

I'd simply use Compose+1+0 and Compose+1+1.

If dozenal becomes popular, this will definitely need to be the way to go: Don't want to make ten and eleven any slower to type than the other digits. And finding places for them will be easy: Just split the oversize "0" and "+" keypad keys into two keys each. Then we could have

[DoHTML]
<table border>
<tr><td>NL</td><td>/</td><td>*</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>9</td><td>[10]</td><td>[11]</td><td>+</td></tr>
<tr><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>.</td></tr>
<tr><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td rowspan="2">Enter</td></tr>
<tr><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>2</td>
</table>
[/DoHTML]

How do you hand-write a four? Because I actually do write it the same way as on a 7-seg display. (Of course, I'm familiar with the triangular '4' in other contexts.)

I thought he meant...

...but as always, I could be wrong.

ruthe I am swamped thru 22 sep but topic is interesting. Perhaps we can widen the gamut by including an appeal or maybe you can write an article for the duodecimal bulletin.

Yes, that is what I meant, not what Dan has. Neither of the ones you used Dan are a mirror in a horizontal line. Also, to make it very clear, I am NOT suggesting that the seven segment display version be used as the written version, but only as the seven segment representation of the written character. The written character would also be an exact mirror of the digit 4, reflected in a mid-line horizontal line (just flip the 4, don't rotate it 180 degrees).

Just so nobody needs to go back to the old post I am including my word document "Symbols" here again. This includes all the criteria that I could find from other members posts and could form a starting point for making a logical selection of symbols. Note that line 24 of Table 1 includes a 'flipped' digit four and its seven segment version. Writing the flipped 4 is easy.

Again, although the 7 segment displays are old technology, there must still be billions of them in use, and given their numbers, why propose characters that would require their compete removal. If dozenal is ever to be considered, it must minimize disruption and maximize monetary benefits. If anybody ever comes up with a 'golden' reason for using dozenal numbering that makes money for some conglomerate, then that would be the fast track to its adoption. That would then drag dozenal weights and measures along with the number system.

However, I still believe the greatest problem is how to distinguish dozenal numbers from decimal ones as there would always be a need to allow both to co-exist.

Oops...I'd gotten a little dyslexic in my state of sleep-deprivation.

I know the symptoms, but in my case I don't know if it's the late hour or the old age.

Ruthe is commendably developing a rational set of criteria by which a community of users of dozenal can review the various symbols proposed over the years, toward the selection of one set. After such a decision, ideally, the community of users would regard the decision as a standard, and employ the standard in whatever application necessary. This is the "top down" approach, where a body of experts evaluate proposals, decide on the best one given a set of criteria, and set in place a standard, one way to arrive at a common frame of reference. I think it is useful to have a set of criteria by which folks evaluate symbols. I do think, however, that interested folks should decide for themselves. It is also good to have a vote on the symbols, because it's a gauge of opinion about them.

There is a second method, the bottom up decentralized approach. Instead of us experts (far be it from me to be expert at anything) deciding upon what symbols to use, we rely on a practical usage or usages to arise. The symbols which are most successful in actual usage will be favored over other symbols, and become the de facto standard. Further, we let usage polish the sharp edges off the stones; we let the symbols evolve. "May the best symbol win, let the market decide." I think this is a good way to arrive at standards, and a lot less stressful, too. Sure, I can't control the outcome, and the outcome might not be one I like. Yes, I guess we do need to be patient, maybe more patient than waiting for the guys in Barcelona to finish the Sagrada Familia. Don't waste your time "proposing"; you don't need anyone's permission - just actually USE your symbols when practical. (This is why I don't make proposals: I don't need anyone's permission. Experts can take a hike, they don't know anything - because they rarely actually DO anything. Ahem sorry if you happen to be an expert; of course I mean all the other experts except you, my friends...) Go ahead and establish a "fact on the ground." The committees of the world will be stuck in their meetings till the cows come home.

Used to be university campus planners built nice straight sidewalks between buildings, where they thought people ought to walk. Students rarely followed these, instead they took the "path of least resistance" to their destinations, wearing ruts in the quads and greens. Now oftentimes, a project will wait a month until the de-facto travel paths make themselves evident, then pave those paths.

Ruthe likes the four-shape for ten, and that seven segment displays have a lot to do with it. There are the Pitman and DSA symbols, the old Dwiggins-Andrews symbols, and plenty of others out there in use. Truth is, no symbol is perfect: who did the 7; it looks like a greater-than (or who did the greater-than...); the 0 looks and smells like an O. The one is just like an I, unless you're from Europe, then it's more distinguished. The 6 is exactly like 9, to the consternation/fascination of my kindergartener. In 1983, I developed a symbol nearly identical to Pitman's ten and a reversed-7 for eleven (because 7 is prime and totative to twelve, and it is a very fast symbol to execute). I don't think it matters which symbols folks use, so long as maybe a lingua-franca of sorts is known among the community (and I think these are in place, Pitman or DSA, whatever). I use my own symbols in business and have based symbols for multiples of ten and eleven on my own symbols for ten and eleven, and this is why I can't "convert". (If it were just two transdecimal symbols, what's the problem?) It doesn't really hurt that Ruthe and I use different symbols. The more important issue is that people use dozenal as a tool as often as practical. Through its exercise, a standard will develop "organically". We can be sure that when a practical reason arises, codepoints and tech and new keys on the keyboard and all that will become available. Dozenal (for all I love about it) has to earn its way onto the keyboards of the world.

I realize you all feel strongly that 7 segment is crucial, among other things. I personally don't believe the seven segment display qualifies as a crucial delimiter on the design of digits, that it is perhaps already becoming obsolete (led signs at local gas stations are increasingly dot matrix and only mirror the former 7 segment arrangement from the last two decades of its use, for example.) It is merely a representation style, and that the constraints that forced people to use such a display have relaxed greatly. That is like saying the stylus used to mark clay tablets should be a delimiter on what characters should resemble. I think the most important feature is that the digits be easy to actually write. We make the tech work for the people, not people work around the tech. I hear all that noise about having computers and calculators, and no, I don't believe that this is a delimiting factor. Rarely does one have a calc on hand in the field when it's needed. Rarely does the baker have time or batter-free hands to key in the mix ratio. Human writing should be the sole delimiter of the design of digits. Force the tech to deal with it. The shoe should fit feet; otherwise it's sculpture.

So carry on, friends, use thy symbols! You use yours, I'll use mine, and whichever the world desires and adopts, that will be the winner. (<winking> It's playing the game that counts.) Upside down backward straightedge fours, asterisks, upsidedown 2s, capital A's, T's, X's, P's, cyrillic letter ts's, thetas, Arabic Hs, curly devanagari Gs, whatever, just use 'em!

No this isn't written to peeve anyone or put anyone down, just my opinion (for what that's worth). PS glad to hear Dan is OK in texas. I know two people in Houston and they're still dealing with it out of house.

I'm against the use of Latin or Greek letters for :A and :B, on the grounds that they're used in maths, so significant confusion would arise. I'm also a little unsure about creating brand new symbols, because that would force the world to design and accomodate new software, etc (cf. the situation in Esperanto with the circumflexes over consonants).

I therefore, in my own private little world, use two letters from Cyrillic. This way, I can write maths without causing problems, and microsoft word supports me.

Which characters do you use?

I haven't actually finalised that yet :unsure:

I'm pretty stable in using the upside down 'N' for ten, but the jury's still out on the other symbol.