on 15 February 1971 the British LSD system was officially read it's last rites
(LSD being pounds-shilllings-pence, and not Lysergic acid Diethylamide)

L stands for the Latin "libre", S represents shillings and comes from the Latin "solidus",
and D represents pence (the plural of penny) and comes from the Latin "denarius".

as the new Decimal Pound was introduced under Prime Minister Edward Heath's government
(the same guy who brough Britain into the EEC)


although it was his predecessor Prime Minister Harold Wilson who started the process of decimalizing the Pound,
and later (after his reelection) decided that Britain should abandon the long scale Chuquet system
of naming large numbers in favour of the american short scale system.

i wonder who the British blame most for losing the old Pound

PM Wilson?
PM Heath?
Richard Nixon?
the breakup of the Beatles?

isn't it odd how national economic crisis so often lead to decimalization?

first the USA
then France and the rest of the continent
then Britain

it seems the only LSD left in the world today is in the hands of drug dealers


for those not familiar or too young to remember the "good'old days"

an overview of the pre-1971 LSD system - shall we?

1 Guinea = 1 Pound + 1 Shilling ( £1-1s-0d predecimal / £1.05 decimal)

1 POUND Sterling (aka Quid) =
(once actually worth a physical pound of silver, before it's descent into fiat currency status)

1 Sovereign
2 Half Sovereign
4 Crown
8 Half Crown
10 Florin
20 Shilling
40 Sixpence
80 Threepence
240 Pence
480 Half Penny
960 Farthing


1 Crown = 2 Half Crown, 5 Shilling, 10 Sixpence, 20 Threepence, 60 Pence, 240 Farthing

1 Half Crown = 2 Shilling + 1 Sixpence, 1 Florin + 1 Threepence, 5 sixpence, 10 threpence, 30 pence 120 farthing

1 Florin = 2 Shilling, 4 Sixpence, 8 Threpence, 24 Pence, 96 Farthing

1 Shilling = 2 Sixpence, 4 Threpence, 12 Pence, 24 Half Penny, 48 Farthing

1 Sixpence (aka Tanner) = 2 Threepence, 6 Pence, 12 Half Penny, 24 Farthing

1 Threepence (thrippence or threppnybit) = 3 Pence, 6 Half Penny, 12 Farthing

1 Penny = 2 Half Penny, 4 Farthing

1 Half Penny = 2 Farthing

1 Farthing (died in 1956 - RIP)


yes, this is much easier than 1 Pound = 100 Pence

i don't understand why people find this system complicated
what could be more simple %-/


if im not mistaken.. that's 11 denominations of coins!
people must have needed a trolly to carry it all


on second thought... LSD does stand for Lysergic acid Diethylamide :wacko:



and to think some people actually miss this bizarre system (go figure)

im curious how many Brits would be in favour of Dozenalizing the Pound

where 1 Pound = 144 Pence


with coin denominations:

dozenal.....decimal

£2..............£2
£1..............£1
60p............72p (half pound)
20p............24p
10p............12p
6p...............6p
1p...............1p

and notes:

dozenal.....decimal

£6..............£6
£10............£12
£20............£24
£60............£72
£100..........£144

Don't they still have 8 denominations (1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, £1, £2)?

jepp, they do ;-)

in sweden we have only 4 coins

50 öre
1 krona
5 kronor
10 kronor

and 5 notes

20 kr
50 kr
100 kr
500 kr
1000 kr

The LSD system is a "hybrid" system based on 12 pence in the shilling and 20 shillings in the pound, thus giving 240 pence in the pound, a figure that is divisible exactly by all these 18 factors: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 20, 24, 30, 40, 48, 60, 80, 120. (And that's without using the halfpenny or farthing.) Whereas 100 only has the 6 factors 2, 4, 5, 20, 25, 50, and 144 only has the 13 factors 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 16, 18, 24, 36, 48, 72.

The Swedish system is thus impoverished, and in my view specifically designed to reduce the mental arithmetic capabilities of its users.

I'm in favour of hybrid systems of units, using two or more different factors in the relationships between the units.

i understand the need for such a hybrid, given the inability of a binary culture
to divide numbers decimally

there is no need for so many factors, when was the last time you had problems
paying for something because the price wasn't divisible by a vulgar fraction?

please give us an example of how this could ever be a problem for decimal currency

the mathematical aptitude of Swedes is legendary

and the simplicity of Swedish currency reflects our method of eliminating redundant system elements to increase efficiency.

i myself am one of many in Sweden in favour of joining the Euro
for 3 reasons..

1. the common currency creates an efficient, unified european economic singularity,
making trade and travel between states as simple as between US states.
rather than an inefficient "virtual" economic union of diverse currencies, where vast amounts of money are lost to shifting exchange rates and fees.

2. EU member states should either join the Euro, or leave the EU,
refusing to commit 100% to the Union is unacceptable.
an EU state should either be completely in or completely out.

3. the US dollar has for far too long held a monopolistic power position in the world market. the Euro has finally created a balance of economic power, raising europa out of the shadow of the USA, as an equal economic giant.

i don't understand why you would want to make life hard on yourself,
but that's certainly your right.

imposing such a detrimental dystopian system on the whole world (however) would be an act of sabotage.

Sharing money.

We often got money (in Christmas time) from our grandparents, which should be shared by me and my two sisters. There is no possibility to do so, because they mostly gave us one note of e.g. 20 DM.

Base 240 is one of the best bases at all (way better then 60 or 12 or, of course, 10), when it comes to divisibility. And having many different coins is also not bad. A 1, 5, 10 coin distribution is not convenient, I think. I would not want to pay 404kr...

Hybrid systems for money are not bad either. I don't see any problem with them, except having to remember that 12 pence are a shilling and 20 shilling are a pound. But it's good for divisibility, and it's good because it's mor dozenal then decimal :) .

20 DM? 20 Deutschmark?

Bist du Deutsche?

Deutschland has had decimal currency for centuries
and now is on the Euro

i have never heard any german complain about money being decimal



but if you have 20 Euro for example

and need to divided it 3 ways
then each get 6,66 € and 2 c are saved for next Christmas

after 3 Christmases you will have 6 extra cent to divide 3 ways

no problem


what if you had dozenal currency and wanted to share a 12 note with 7 persons
then what would you do?

sharing christmas money is not so serious a problem
and definately not a good enough reason to complicate a monetary system

in all my decades on this planet i have never encountered a problem with decimal currency

nor have i met anyone who has

D stands for both penny and pence, not just the plural.
LSD also stood for "livre - sou - denier" in France.
But to the main points:

"although it was his predecessor Prime Minister Harold Wilson who started the process of decimalizing the Pound,
and later (after his reelection) decided that Britain should abandon the long scale Chuquet system
of naming large numbers in favour of the american short scale system."

A pity then, seeing that the American system is illogical. To the English, and the Germans, a billion has twelve noughts, standing
as it does for "bi-million"; a trillion "tri-million" has eighteen noughts and so on. What the Americans call a billion is more properly named, as by the Germans, a milliard.

"i wonder who the British blame most for losing the old Pound"

PM Wilson, of course.
I was sitting quietly drinking a pint of beer in the pub when he came on the television in 1965 to announce
the decimalisation of the currency. Since he decided to carry it out, he gets the blame.


"1 POUND Sterling"
was a pound of 240 "sterlings"; the Dutch had a pound grot of 240 grots. The division into 240
was current in most of Europe (livre = 20 sous = 240 deniers etc).

"1 Sovereign
2 Half Sovereign
4 Crown
8 Half Crown
10 Florin
20 Shilling
40 Sixpence
80 Threepence
240 Pence
480 Half Penny
960 Farthing"

if im not mistaken.. that's 11 denominations of coins!"
You've forgotten the double-florin and the half-farthing (and there was also a third-farthing for use in the Colonies). And what about the guinea, half-guinea and third-guinea (this last being 7s)?

Coins in use in the late 20th Century were the halfpenny, penny, 3d bit, 6d, shilling, florin and half-crown.
Gold coins (sovereign and half-sov) did not survive long after the WWI and the farthing died in the Fifties.
As for the number of coins in your pocket, you certainly didn't end up with a multiplicity of any one denomination
as you tend to do nowadays (and always did abroad),


"i don't understand why people find this system complicated"

Nor do I. But then I was brought up with it and used, like many English people, to find the
European currency comical.

"what could be more simple"

Certainly not a decimalised system like the Mickey Mouse Money we have now.

"and to think some people actually miss this bizarre system"

True. But I didn't find it bizarre, and still don't. The system worked and worked well (as actually stated in one report on Decimal Currency)
and was considered by many to be a much better system for small change than any decimalised system.

The total effect since 1971 is that we now have a version of the pound-mil system but with 1000p to a ten-pound note. I found it interesting at the time that the 1p should so resemble the farthing and the (short-lived) half-p the half-farthing. Many people blamed the inflation which followed on the decimalisation but it didn't actually cause the inflation; in fact it partially disguised it by choosing such a large "smaller unit" 1p equal to 2·4d.

I like £sd.

i can only imagine how difficult life must have been for British accountants before 1971
having to calculate at least 3 seperate columns of numbers

it would have been much easier to simply divide the Pound into 1000 p

was there a Half Farthing? that's funny, i never came across any references to that one

i know there was once also a Dollar coin in Britian, used as the basis of the American Colonial Dollar
(named after the German Thaler)

the old currency in Sweden was once the Dalar (Riksdalar)
which was also derived from the Thaler (Reichsthaler)
as was the Netherlands - Rijksdaalder, and Danish/Norwegian Rigsdalar

the Riksdalar was replaced by the Krona in 1873, at the start of the Scandinavian Monetary Union
(2 years before signing the treaty of the meter)

the German Thaler had a great influence in Europa due to Lübeck being the head of the Hanseatic League from 1358 to 1862

other Hansa cities being :

* Hamburg
* Lüneburg
* Rostock
* Stade
* Stettin (Szczecin)
* Stralsund
* Wismar
* Kiel

* Braunschweig (Brunswick)
* Berlin
* Bremen
* Erfurt
* Frankfurt an der Oder
* Goslar
* Magdeburg

* Danzig
* Breslau (Wrocław)
* Dorpat (Tartu)
* Fellin (Viljandi)
* Elbing (Elbląg)
* Königsberg (Królewiec, Kaliningrad)
* Reval (Tallinn)
* Riga
* Stockholm
* Thorn (Toruń)
* Visby
* Kraków

* Cologne
* Roermond
* Deventer
* Dortmund
* Groningen
* Kampen
* Osnabrück
* Soest

* Bergen - Bryggen
* Bruges
* London - Steelyard
* Novgorod

* Antwerp
* Boston
* Damme
* Edinburgh
* Hull
* Ipswich
* King's Lynn
* Kaunas
* Newcastle
* Polotsk
* Pskov
* Great Yarmouth
* York

* Anklam
* Arnhem
* Bolsward
* Brandenburg
* Cesis (Wenden)
* Chełmno (Kulm)
* Doesburg
* Duisburg
* Einbeck
* Göttingen
* Greifswald
* Halle
* Harlingen
* Hannover
* Herford
* Hildesheim
* Hindeloopen
* Kalmar
* Koknese (Kokenhusen)
* Kuldīga (Goldingen)
* Lemgo
* Merseburg

* Minden
* Münster
* Narva (Narwa)
* Nijmegen
* Paderborn
* Pärnu (Pernau)
* Perleberg
* Quedlinburg
* Salzwedel
* Smolensk
* Stargard Szczeciński (Stargard)
* Stendal
* Turku (Åbo)
* Tver
* Valmiera (Wolmar)
* Ventspils (Windau)
* Viljandi (Fellin)
* Wesel
* Vyborg (Wiburg)
* Zutphen
* Zwolle

Using £sd is not difficult at all if you have been brought up with it - given a set of the coins and a few old price lists I think anyone could make themselves proficient in it in a very short time. The DSGB had one enquiry from an American wanting examples of sterling sums so he could try the system.

Dollar - yes, there was the British Trade Dollar - but the basis of the American dollar was in fact the (Colonial) halfpenny from the (Colonial) £sd system. A hundred such halfpennies (renamed "cents") made the dollar, so the dollar was worth 4s2d in sterling.

yes, im sure this is true

it's simply alien to those of us born to a strictly decimal culture.



i get the feeling that many dozenal supporters/promoters are also in favour
of this type of multibase currency

is this the case, or does dozenal thinking also invoke nostalgia of past systems?


i would think that hard-core dozenal supporters would want to use strictly base 12
in exactly the same way decimal is used

base 12 integers + dozenal fractions after a separator

Actually, the US dollar is based on the Spanish milled dollar, which was standardized at 371¼ grains of silver. (At that time, Spain controlled most of the western hemisphere, so Spanish coins were easy to come by.)

But it's true that the colonies did have £sd coinage, which were based on widely varying definitions of the pound.

This means the dollar was worth:

• 4/9½ in GA
• 5/9 in VA, CT, RI, MA, & NH
• 7/2½ in MD, DE, PE, & NJ
• 7/8¼ in NC & NY

A cent was close to the Georgia halfpenny or the New York and North Carolina pennies.

in terms of Pounds?

also i assume you mean...

0.421 in GA
0.555 in VA, CT, RI, MA, & NH
2.8 in MD, DE, PE, & NJ ..................why so much more in these colonies?
0.848 in NC & NY


do the english and americans really use this form of vulgar (double) fractions in everyday life?

Yes, but those aren't fractions, but shillings and pence.

aha, ok

so 4/9½ = 4 £ 9 S 6 d correct?

4 s 9½ d

so the full form would be written as 0/4/9½

this kind of ambiguity is what i find confusing about multibase systems

and another advantage of place value fractions

since

1 S = 0.05 £ and
1 d = 0.00416 £

then

0/4/9½ = 0.2395833327 £

why not just drop the shilling all together
and just use Pound and pence, with 240 pence to 1 Pound

0.000, 0.001, 0.002, .... through ... 0.238, 0.239, 1.000

using modulus 10 for pounds and modulus 240 for pence

or even better - since the main reason for so many sub units was the higher value of old money,
just divide the Pound into 1000 pence and call it a day


personally im against fractional currency altogether

i think there should be 1 single quantum unit of currency
so that all monetary values would be whole number multiples of this one unit

for example drop the Pound and use only pence

where 1000 p = 10 £ , 1500 p = 15 £ , 2000 p = 20 £ , etc...

then you would only need 10000 £ to be a millionaire! ;)

4s 9½d - no need to put the pounds.
We never wrote 0/4/9½.

5 pounds 6 shillings and threepence was written £5 6s 3d, sometimes with stops £5. 6s. 3d.
The solidus was used between shillings and pence in amounts under £1, especially when handwritten - 5s 6d or 5s. 6d or 5/6. This solidus / was a version of the "long s" - s being the abbreviation for shilling. An italic lowercase L was used for pounds before the £ sign, and was written after the numeral, and the s and d were also printed in italics.
I can post some scans of examples, if you wish.


As for any difficulty - don't forget we're dealing with money. People learn the money system of a foreign country quickly, because it is money.

As for fractional currency, is 1 Euro made up of 100 cents, or is Euro a convenient name for 100 cents?
If you just want one unit then you could look at the (pre-Euro) peseta or lira.

No, I don't think you'll find any dozenalists in favour of a multibase currency or metric system. The only mixed-base system in general use is time; and that too can be rationalised to one base.

There are many like me who cannot see anything wrong with £sd; it worked, and worked well.

But as a dozenal supporter I think we should have a fully dozenal currency (see DSGB website for suggestions).

actually Euro is the base unit of currency
and cent is short for centieuro (100th of a Euro)

the proper name is cent (plural and singular) rather than cents, as in american cents

ex. 1 Euro - 50 cent = 1,50 € in proper european notation

the € (Euro sign) being after the value, rather than before - as in English notation

what form of system is prefered that is neither multibase nor metric
a single base system is metric by default

Or, for a still-existing example, the Japanese yen.

a currency without subunits is very efficient

and immune to the problem of misplaced decimals

I presume by "metric" you mean a measuring system rationalised with the number base and not one based on the present metre.

yes, exactly

the term metric comes from the Greek ~ metrikos - meaning measurement
and is defined as a system of measurement with a common base.

the length unit meter was the flagship unit of the early metric system
so it received the honour of the name ~ meter

however the SI does not own the term metric

it can be applied to any system of measure

Hello. I've been reading this forum since several months ago, but hadn't decided to register. I think all of you will agree with me that Växan has entered the discussions in a very arrogant and pretentious manner, and I just couldn't take it anymore.

So, to Växan:

I'm sorry, but you are COMPLETELY WRONG. Just check any dictionary before coming here preaching your mistaken assumptions on us.

American Heritage Dictionary:

metric system
NOUN: A decimal system of units based on the meter as a unit length, the kilogram as a unit mass, and the second as a unit time.

metric (1)
ADJECTIVE: Of or relating to the meter or the metric system.
ETYMOLOGY: French métrique, from mètre, meter. See meter (2).

meter (2)
NOUN: abbr. m The international standard unit of length, approximately equivalent to 39.37 inches. It was redefined in 1983 as the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second. See table at measurement.
ETYMOLOGY: French mètre, from Greek metron, measure.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: metric system
Function: noun
: a decimal system of weights and measures based on the meter and on the kilogram

Main Entry: (2) metric
Function: adjective
Etymology: French métrique, from mètre meter
: of, relating to, or using the metric system

Main Entry: (3) meter
Function: noun
Etymology: French mètre, from Greek metron measure
: the base unit of length in the International System of Units that is equal to the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 second or to about 39.37 inches

The definitions are very clear (the metric system is decimal and it's based on the meter), as are the etymologies (the adjective and the name of the system are derived from the name of the length unit, which is the one ultimately derived from Greek), and have little to do with what you pretend the terms "metric" and "metric system" to mean.

actually you are completely wrong
the definition you've posted is only one of many definitions for the term - metric


also if you don't like what i have to say, then don't read it
posting spurious remarks directed at other members is not only uncool
it's against forum etiquette

this is a place for people to voice their opinions on a subject
not on other persons




9 entries found for metric.
met·ric2
n.

1. A standard of measurement.
2. Mathematics. A geometric function that describes the distances between pairs of points in a space.


adj.

Of or relating to distance.


[From Latin metricus, relating to measurement. See metrical.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



[Greek (h) metrik (tekhn), (the art) of meter, feminine of metrikos, relating to measurement. See metrical.]


-metric
suff.

Of or relating to measurement: volumetric.


[Latin metricus. See metrical.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Main Entry: met·ric
Pronunciation: 'me-trik
Function: adjective
: of, relating to, or using the metric system <a metric study> —met·ri·cal·ly /-tri-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.[QUOTE]

That's "metric" as a noun (as in "a metric of spacetime"), which is a quite unrelated use to that of "metric" in "metric system", both semantically and grammatically. That's precisely why the dictionaries care to list it as a separate entry.

Again, this suffix is not derived from nor related to the "metric" in "metric system". It's a different lexical item altogether, which just happens to be homonymous because of a shared origin; just like meter, the unit of length, versus meter, a device for measuring, versus meter, a rhythmic or syllabic measure in poetry, which are three etymologically related —the three ultimately derive from Greek metron— but clearly distinct words that dictionaries, of course, list as separate entries.

Your claim that "metric system" refers to any system of measures with a common base because one of the three homonymous words "metric" means "a standard of measurement" is as absurd as saying that the system for measuring the rhythm and length of stanzas is also a "metric system" because, hey, we use the word "metric" in "the metric of a verse". Paraphrasing you, if you present your theory to a panel of linguists, they will laugh themselves to death.

As for this:

It would be fine if, first, you applied your own medicine to yourself: if you don't like nor favour the dozenal idea, then what on earth are you doing here? Just leave this forum instead of trying to ridicule it and repeatedly insult those who favour anything other than your cherished metric system and decimal currency. Coming to a dozenal forum "as an emissary from the decimalzone" in order to attack our ideals is definitely not good forum etiquette.

The present decimal metrological system should be described as "The Metric System" (emphasis on "The"). We can then talk about a "dozenal metric system", "binary metric system" or whatever, if we wish; but you must admit that to most people the only use of the word metric that they understand is in connection with the decimal Metric System.

And it should be pointed out that the only advantage that The Metric System might have over any other is that its units are rationalised with and organised to the usual base of numeration.

Change the base and rationalise your units with it and you can have all the advatages and less of the disadvantages of the Metric System as long as you choose a number base that gives you improvements on base ten.


(And may we do without the mud-slinging, please?)

Here's a scan of a page showing sums in £sd

and another:


We used to do most of the work in our heads; before calculators appeared you relied on yourself, used mental arithmetic, pencil and paper where necessary.

The first thing you noticed when you went abroad and asked for your bill at a cafe was that the waiter had to write everything down and add it all up, whereas in England we were used to waiters, grocers and the like doing the sums in their heads. Of course the advent of the supermarket changed all that; there was a machine at the checkout to do the work; and once there's a machine to do the work people stop using their brains to do calculations. Which "releases time for other work" or "allows the mind to be more creative", as they said at the time; fine; but the brain benefits from exercise and whatever anyone says about our £sd and the Imperial System, it provided plenty of mental arithmetic to stimulate the mind (especially first thing in the morning in the Maths lesson!)

And here, just for example, is a page from an old arithmetic book and a dozenal version of the same page below.

and


and if anyone would like some more pictures from our archives of old arithmetic books, please say - perhaps I should start a separate thread?

Fascinating - but some of us aren't old enough to remember any of that. We still have feet and inches, at least until our beloved Government bans using them as well as they have selling by the pound.

the term metric

i never mentioned the term metric system in my statement

you have mentally added the word system in your misinterpretation of my statement


i clearly stated that the SI does not own the term METRIC

Is it really £sd you miss, or is it those 5d loaves of bread? ;)

I've worked the left side of the page. The problems don't seem that hard so far.

So, did England not have sales taxes (at least in the American sense)? It's easy to add in your head, but multiplying by 0.0825 takes much more effort.

sales tax in the UK is called VAT (value added tax)
as in the rest of europa - VAT is automatically included in all prices
so you never have to wonder what the final price will be

VAT in the UK and Germany is 16%
here in sweden it's 25%

There was "purchase tax" but that was always included in the price.

There was no VAT when we had £sd.

VAT here is 17½% (or 3s6d in the £) and can be easily worked out as (10 + 5 + 2½)%. (8% on heating fuel; nothing on books and newspapers)
25% is rather steep!