Melissa asked me to post about this this morning. Summer meetings will resume this friday at her house. Melissa will post the specific details later.

For the summer meetings we're going to try and stake out the Phase 2 club house. Meetings will be from 6-10:30 every other friday. Dates may vary depending on when people are availiable. Since its the summer, we can try to work around people's schedules so please let me know if there's any conflict with Fridays.

As I mentioned in the general discussion thread, we're going to be showing a wide variety of series and animes which we will pit off against each other tournament style in order to decide what to watch for the fall semester.

Rough Meeting Schedule
6:00 - Meeting begins, announcements and food orders.
6:05- 6:55 Action block
7:00-7:55 Drama block
---20 minute break--
8:10-9:00 Comedy block
9:05-10:00 Eyecandy block

I won't be in dallas for the first meeting so I'll see you guys at the next one

Is there going to be any plans to announce ahead of time what will be shown?

The lack of order in the summer meetings is distressful. I fail to see how voting on what the club is planning on showing fall semester will result in a good schedule. It will only result in a schedule that is popular with the people who show up to summer meetings, nothing more.

And the alternative is having a fall schedule chosen entirely by the officers.. unless you know of some way of beaming content all the club members who are off campus atm and getting their opinions? Spoon might as well get feedback from as many people as possible, and if there is something you want shown next semester then bring it to the summer meetings or let me know and I'll try to grab it off irc

What is wrong with having a fall schedule chosen by the officers? I would hope that officers would know enough to build a balanced schedule. The exact sort of schedule you dont get when you have members vote on what to show. SPOON does well catering to its members tastes, but in doing so fails the campus community at large.

I dont mind a mechanism for feedback, but I dont think this is a very good one. I have little incentive to show up to summer meetings without some series that interests me.

I also dont follow new anime releases. It would be nice if the club could introduce its members to new good anime series. I already posted my collection in a different thread. If the officers see anything they would like to show, contact me and I would be happy to bring it. I like what I own, but the sad truth is I dont go to anime clubs to watch my own anime.

Ummm, for the last month and a half or more, each meeting we previewed a newer anime series someone in the club has. Many of these are good series and I think many of them would be good shows to start showing during the fall semester.

I don't see the problem with having the member pick the shows. Since we're the ones spending our Friday nights there, we oughta have a say in what is shown at meetings. I mean, it's not like we have no idea about what is good or bad anime. Also, near the end of the year we did pick up about 5 additional regulars, that's gotta mean we're doing something right.

Why should you have a direct say in what is shown at meetings?

Honestly you dont have an idea about what is a good or bad anime to show. You have an idea of the anime you prefer. People will naturally vote on their preferences rather then picking a balanced viewing schedule. Pandering to current members is a good way to alienate potential members with different tastes.

Really? What did the club do right to attract these members? How many members stopped showing up this same semester because of how the club is run?

Some of those 5 members wanted to show up before, but kept having scheduling conflicts. SPOON has a background word of mouth going for it; people will always find us for reasons we can never fathom. Though advertising doesn't hurt.

Number of people who stopped showing up can be counted, but their reasons can only be guessed at.

This last semester there was a group of people who wanted to start an anime club because they didnt know UT-D has one. SPOON does not have background word of mouth going for it. The club desperately needs some from of advertising.

Unless you do something like ask them ;)

Ok, but you've still ignored the fact that we have been previewing and showing new anime, often recently released in Japan. So that totally negates your claim that we have not been showing any new anime, because we've been showing stuff that is from the most recent season released in Japan.

Also, that is why we are separating showing blocks into broad genres, since it is a wide array it will be a variety of what people like. Comedy will balance out the drama, there will be eyecandy for people who just want something pretty to look at and there will be action for people who like fighting animes.

We have been going up and setting up booths in Freshman orientation. And we plan to attend every freshman orientation to get the word out. However it take a LOT of advertising to get the attention of people in UTD. Often times, they won't even notice the giant banners hanging around the student union and other buildings. I have continually put up fliers for SPOON and other events, but people also don't check the fliers much. For the fall, we have a brand new flier designed by Alex which looks really cool and we are going to make a banner to put up. However, since we are also limited in the banners we can use and our funds, this is quite difficult.

If you think the club needs advertising, then go out there and help us spread it by word of mouth. The officers can't do it alone.

Vitzh, you've made your reasons painfully clear why you don't like the club, and I assume from the other suggestions you've made you also are talking for other people as well. If you don't care about contributing to the quality of viewing block this fall, then check with us in the Fall and see what we have planned for then without your help. Then you can judge how SPOON is going.

It doesnt take a "LOT" of advertising to get peoples attention, it takes "any" advertising. I have not seen a spoon poster on campus in well over a year, nor have I ever seen any advertising at Waterview. Once a month putting up fliers in strategic locations around campus is not difficult.

Its good to see there are plans to do more advertising in the coming semester. Freshman Orientation and the start of the year party are both good ideas. However they need more follow through and organization to make sure they are successful.

The officers of the club should easily be able to run the club on their own. The fact that you dont think this is possible speaks volumes to me about your view of their competency. Do we really need someone in charge of playing dress up instead of someone in charge of advertising?

If the officers need help with anything, it can ask. I havent seen any call for help with putting up fliers, working on the banner, etc. Word of mouth isnt the way to go for advertising.

I do care about contributing to the quality of the viewing block this fall, and over the summer. The current plan for the summer will result with issues in both of these showings. Isnt it better to try to take a more proactive role then saying I told you so afterwords?

I know I personally put up fliers all around campus in every message board I could find at the beginning of this semester so either you weren't looking at the flier boards or someone took them down. I even put fliers in all the phase mail message boards that I could.

We do have someon in charge of doing advertising right now and he is the one who has been creating the fliers. We've distributed these at the last freshman orientation.

And I do know for a fact that it does take a lot of advertising to get people's attention, they even had a poll on it in the UTD mercury. I've known huge events that have gone largely unnoticed by people even though there's been 3X5 foot banners hanging all over the place. That is what I classify as a lot of advertising and SPOON does not have that money.

I find it startling that people who do complain so much about the club will continue to complain about the line up yet refuse to see anything other than what they personally like, to the point that they miss what new stuff is put up and then complain that it never existed. Nor will they even consider doing anything at all to help the club making the excuse that its not their responsibility.

I find your criticism the opposite of proactive as you have yet to give me anything constructive to go on with your suggestions other than "I don't like it". Or "Well the officers should know better". I do not think it is possible for any advice to be more vague or less helpful than that.

That's really the problem, Vitzh. That's all you do. You complain about things that have been shown to apply often exclusively to your own point of view, but then refuse to do anything about it. You speak like you know what you're doing, but it's clear to anyone with any form of leadership experience that you have really little idea what you're talking about when running a club. Previous experience you claim to have be damned.

You talk about all the things you believe should be done, but so far the most you have done is come to one officer meeting and proceed to complain for minutes on end about what you don't like personally and offer no solution other than just everyone should listen to you exclusively. We offered you a hand to have a direct say in the club, and you take it as an invitation to bitch without offering any real solution or any series to watch. That's not diplomacy, that's zealotry.

You don't do anything active, and therefore you don't really have a say. We'll listen to other ideas, but the ideas that hold the most weight are those held by the most active members. That is the way things work. DEAL WITH IT. Unlike you, we're not out to please everyone. That's a idyllic and impossible goal perpetuated by fools. We aim to please those that want what we have offer. That is how clubs work.

You talk about advertising, but so far you haven't gotten off your own ass and even so much made a flier or helped with the advertising we do in the student union that was getting taken down when we put it up. We are human as well and can't always get around to everything, that is why we rely on volunteers to help. If you're so concerned with the advertising, you should PERSONALLY volunteer to put up ALL of the flier EVERY week and stick to it. No theories. Just get up and do it, no one is stopping you. This is a job easily done by one person that does absolutely nothing else in the club.

This is how Richard, Eric, Me, Melissa, and all the current officer became officers. We got off our asses and did more than was necessary, and the members at that time recognized that and put us into a position to do more of it. You know that library you bitched about for the whole year? Eric put it all together BY HIMSELF without your help at all. If you pushed it so hard, you should have been at his house giving him input or sending him your own personal files. As of now, I didn't hear of you doing anything like that. Last year we did a fund-raiser that all of the officers put together with their own money and time, and put all the sales in the Spoon box. How about the shows we show? You complain about them, but never really offer alternatives. The best I've seen is that we should watched Scryed, a series that I'll have you know that almost everyone I asked about hated. Besides, Scryed is a comedy, and I believe your specific constant quip is we show too much of that.

You assume that you can be an idea man and be revered as a leader in the club. It doesn't work that way. You don't have to be an officer to do something in the club, and your complete inability to do anything proves to me that you would NEVER be a good officer.

All you care about as far as this club is concerned is yourself. Behind all your political bullshit and verbose terminology, you're really are out only for yourself. You claim about all these theorhetical people that you speak for, and how they make up so much of the club, but from what I've seen in person, there's really a heavy minority. Even my roommate who doesn't come to the meetings anymore for that talking reason you don't like. You even brought them specifically to the Vice President election meeting just so you could be an officer, and without the officers voting, you still lost. That should tell you something right there. Your inability to compromise is the sole reason that nothing has changed in your view. If you want something THAT bad, get up and DO IT, DON'T SAY IT.

Oh, and you keep pointing out what horrible failures things have been, but a lot of the people I've talked to have considered this be a successful semester for SPOON. So, if this really has been as horrendous as a semester as you claim, I'd like a list of names of people. I want the NAMES of all these people that you stand up for in your revolutionist zeal. Because from what I've seen, the list counts three, maybe four of the active hundred or so people on the Spoon list that still go to this college.

If you really want to argue over things, and insist that officers should account for things you complain about then I INSIST you account for all of this, and I don't want you dodging the topic like you usually do. Stick exactly to the topic at hand and explain yourself. You should expect the same treatment you give to others. If you want to call people on every small detail, then you can expect me to call you on yours. Fair is fair.

Putting up fliers once doesnt cut it. Its good to learn which buildings fliers will stay up forever in, which you need to come back to every week, and which buildings are a waste time. Hopefully you learned that lesson.

No, thats failed advertisement. How much would it cost SPOON to do a bi-weekly or monthly flier run? That would probably be your best form of advertisement

Really? I guess if people knew that some new stuff was being shown and what it was then maybe they would show up. Especially if it was a set schedule, and they didnt have to watch anime they didnt like for hours to watch something good again. When was the last time the viewing schedule was updated on this forum again?

I'm sorry, but I expect officers to be responsible for the positions they have been elected to. If an officer isnt capable of their duties they could ask for help. Do you need help with anything?

I have given a ton of advice that goes beyond "I dont like it". It has been ignored. What areas would you like some more constructive advice in, and would you actually listen to it?

That's really childish Vitzh. You're trying to endear yourself with other people through mudslinging, rather than addressing the topic at hand. It's actually not any of our jobs to do advertising. That's not what we're elected for. We're elected to run the meetings. The rest we do as side work. If you'd actually try it for once, you'd realize it's more work than it sounds.

That also doesn't change the fact that you refuse to do anything about it if you truly believe we're not doing enough. If you believe that, it's YOUR JOB to fix it as a "concerned member".

Also, I dare you to give me ONE CASE of you being constructive and not just complaining or trying to force your ideals on others.

The burden of proof is on your hands since you started the argument. YOU have to prove it. Stop avoiding the topic, and discuss this like the intelligent socialite you claim to be. Stop trying to pass the blame.

...Vitzh, seriously. Have you ever checked the schedules? I mean actually clicked looked at it? I updated continuously for the last two months up to our second to last meeting before finals. That included the showing of our new stuff, complete with links to what it was. If you'll check, my last addition was April 7th, which was our second to last meeting. Because the last meeting we were showing Officers choice, a schedule wasn't possible there.

You still don't seem to understand the fact that student participation in campus events and general club membership is a problem for UTD as a whole. Heck, I could cite you the exact articles from the UTD Mercury where they talked about that, this year. I like how you dismiss the better funded efforts of the university putting up giant banners as failed advertising, yet expect that putting up more fliers will change things. And I notice that you still haven't volunteered yourself.

The last thing constructive you ever did that I could have actually worked with was the hour per show schedule you suggested which would have prevented us from finishing any series we started. It would have created a serious scheduling problem. I actually modified the schedule to create more of a compromise to your suggestion even though you would offer none for the concerns other people raised, also including new shows. But that was back in the beginning of the semester, but from what I gather from you, the incorporation of your own ideas didn't make too much of a difference. And I noticed you still haven't responded to Dairun's question

Exclusively to my point of view? Ha. When was I allowed to make any of the changes I would like to see done? When was I asked to do something but then refused to do it?

I have only been invited to go to one officers meeting. Its good to see that constructive criticism is "bitching". I also like how my asking you to learn to behave in public is "zealotry". Those movie theater owners are really zealous about that too for some reason. I offered you a solution to this issue, but it appears controlling yourself isnt something you are capable of. Since you remember everything so well, what else did I complain about?

Personally, I would listen to ideas for improvement no matter who gave them. I would also work for trying to build the best club on campus for the anime community as a whole instead of the few people who currently show up. Better to work for an ideal then to try to build the club around your own little clique.

When did the officers ask for help with issues in the student union? This isnt an issue of you being humans and being busy, its an issue of the responsibilities you have as an officer. If you dont want these responsibilities dont be an officer in the club. Its what you were elected to do. As another person who does nothing else in the club, why dont you actually work on ads? What great responsibility has kept you from doing this personally?

You really should talk to some people who came before you. Jerry gives a much different impression on the reasons you were made an officer, and about how he feels you are handling it. Funny that.

I dont have fansubs to give to the library. I did give advice on what to do when building the library. Eric seems to be a competent officer. He was elected to do a job for the benefit of the club and he did it. If he needs help with something and asked for it I would be happy to help.

Because Scryed isnt a comedy?

I have offered alternatives in the past. I even offered an entire alternative schedule in a previous thread. Your selective memory in this entire rant is astounding.

I dont assume to be an idea man. I assume to be someone who sees issues with a club. A lot of the changes I would like to see happen in the club I cant do from my current position. Its nothing I am happy about, but its what I am stuck with.

All I care about is myself? Again for someone who demands proof you seem happy enough to make up facts to support your own views. What was that you called me again?

You dont think that there is an issue in the club when there is a heavy minority of ex-members? Or when there is a huge group on face book about anime but very few people show up to the anime club?

Actually, I never asked them to show up to the VP election. They showed up on their own. This was before they, as members, decided the club wasnt worth their time. I also know why I lost that election. I learned not to assume that officers can count.

My inability to compromise? How many of the suggestions that I brought up have been taken seriously? I would personally do a lot of these ideas myself, but its impossible to do some of them without being an officer. Its amazing you fail to see that.

I find this sad. You set your sights so low that this looks like a great semester for the club?

I cant give names of people who will stand up for my "revolutionist zeal". I could give you names of people who arent happy with how the club is being run. Unfortunately that doesnt meet the requirements for your strawman.

People on the SPOON mailing list != member of the club. I know people on that list that have never shown up for a single spoon event in all their years of college.

I am sorry I held the officers responsible for the duties that they were elected to do. As you dont seem capable of simple things on your own, what do you need help with? As it seems I have been asked to help out several times now, what can I do?

Trying to endear myself to anyone here? :D

Right, it was your elected job to play dress up. One of my suggestions to the club was to have officers who elected positions were to provide useful roles. This is easy to accomplish as you just change what the officers should be responsible for. Sadly, I cant do this as a non-officer. Amazing how that all works.

I've run club meetings far longer then you think. Its easy. Its what the president should be able to do on their own. Its the sidework that you dismiss that is so important in running the club.

Ahh. Work is hard, and why not get pissy at people who call you on not doing it? I dont start these threads just for shits and giggles. I would be happy to work in a constructive environment to improve the club even as a non-officer. For a lot of reasons that hasnt happened with the current officers.

I reposted one case above. I can find a quote for you as well if you would like. Hopefully you will read it this time. If not I will dutifully repost it.

Actually, we've asked for help. People didn't help. It happens. Also, my official duties are also to act as a back-up officer for any officier that might be absent, which I do quite often. If Jerry has a separate opinion, that's fine, but a lot of the members will vouch that I did my part. I like how your only objective is to defame me, not answer the questions. You started this argument, not me.

You failed to answer the ACTUAL questions. That time at the officer's meeting, you refused to compromise. I believe your exact sentiment was that everyone shut up during the meeting at all times or nothing at all. That YOU BELIEVED 30 minutes of break time was enough, and that we should SEGREGATE members off in the back that talk. You weren't compassionate at the time about this. As a matter of fact, you were demanding at this time. You REFUSED to listen to others, because just about EVERYONE there offered you an alternative that you outright refused.

But enough mud-slinging Vitzh. You haven't addressed the ISSUES, just our characters here. You FAILED to mention any series you have addressed, you FAILED to mention any constructive criticism, and YOU FAILED to mention why you don't get up and do something for the club yourself. THESE are the topics, not your personal feelings on people. ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS. Don't dodge these issues. I will not let them drop.

Enough with your childish finger-pointing. I want FACTS not heresay, not opinions. If you cannot substantiate your claims, then you have no argument. You own personal biases, vendettas, and views on what this club are not facts.

If you have to post or link things, I will read them, but you've merely said that they're there. THAT IS NOT PROOF!

Vitzh, in ALL of those cases. I asked you for ways in which we could find compromise. I specifically asked you for ways that we could better balance interests. You merely reiterated the same things that you always do. That is the reason why none of your ideas get implemented, because you simply dismiss the concerns of others and when I do ask for feedback you merely shut it down and no constructive alternatives.

Instead of attacking why other people don't work, you still haven't given any good excuse as to why you yourself can't do it. If you think that he is doing nothing, why is it that he shows up for every meeting, covers for me when I am unable to make it, runs the tabletop games for SPOON, provides exposition and backstory for episodes at every meeting, and puts up his own money for fundraising efforts as well as serving has a human advertising board with his cosplay outfits.

You mean the thread entitled Meeting 3/31/06? or the general meeting schedule post last updated March 17th? Awesome way to organize schedules there.

Brian quoted me saying I would be willing to help him. What more do you need?

I understand the issue with student participation on campus. I was at a smaller college then this one which had the same issue. Silly me for dismissing something that failed as a failure. Advertising for a regular club meeting is a little different.

Which one of Brian's questions would you like me to respond to? He is very tl ; dr and it takes a while to respond to him.

Compromise? You dont, and still dont seem to understand a lot of the issues with your current method of scheduling. Its kinda sad that all you can see is that you wont finish certain series.

An offer to help is not helping. Doing it only to make a point is childish. The point here is that no one is stopping you from helping with the advertisements. If you made the fliers and put them up, there would be no complaints. However, you seem insistent on complaining about things and then asking who's going to fix them. If you actually thought they were important enough, you would do them yourself. That is the point.

Once again, you're just mud-slinging. Since you apparently need it spelled out, here are the questions.

1. Why don't you actually do something about the things you compain about instead of expecting every other person to do it? Other members have taken this initiative before, what is stopping you?

2. When have you EVER offered constructive criticism? You did not post an example. You may have alluded to one, but you did not post it.

3. What series have you suggested instead of just flaming the current ones?

These questions have not been answered by you.

Also, I completely agree with Kiroth. Your stubborn-headedness and belligerence towards multiple members is the reason nothing has been implemented that you suggested. We have listened to the members that have been more reasonable and willing to work with us. If you showed this kind of respect and dignity and didn't spend your time insulting the other members, we'd pay you the same.

Edit: I nearly forgot. Also, you said you could list names. I already know some of them, but I'd like proof that your group is not a minority small enough that we should not worry about them.

On this very forum? You like asking for proof how about you show it to me?

See my constructive post about changing the officers duties. If those duties are "your part" you are barely doing anything for this club as an officer.

Brian, do you talk when you go to the theater? Or when you go to see a movie?

To be honest, I dont remember the burning desire for 30 minute breaks...and could care less. I did care that officers set a poor example for behavior during showings. I am surprised to see my suggestion that you learn to behave is taken in such a light. Is it so hard to control yourself so other people can enjoy an anime showing?

I would think your own roommate not showing up would be enough of a clue.

Actually, I did all these things. What I would suggest you to do is to learn to read. Seriously. It can't hurt to try.

Or you know, you can continue to type in caps.

Childish finger pointing? Do you even read what you write?

I said I would retype them...and so I have:

Sadamitsu
Officer Duties
Lack of ability to change above issue.

What more do you want?

Vitzh, I suggest you read those a bit closer. From the very first post, I said I would be editing those posts and putting the new schedules there. Tha's the way I've always done things. If you had actually read the thread, you would have found that out. You should have that since you responded there, however since that thread began to get spammed Nathan suggested a new meeting schedule thread be posted and he did so. I also announced long ago that the 14th of April would be the last meeting for the semester. And by your own admonition, your arguement about there not being schedules there is utterly moot.

And as far as compromise, you said yourself that you wanted to show more different shows and to show more new shows. We've done that. We've cut down on the length of the viewing block per series as you requested. The only exception was Scrapped Princess because we could not afford to rent the dvd twice. This semester alone we've shown Monster, El Hazard, Slayers, Noein, Musishi, Scrapped Princess, Princess Tutu, Mezzo, HunterxHunter, Bleach, Magical Play and a bunch of others can't remember off the top of my head. We've mixed old with new, action, comedy, romance and serious in.

I initially tried to quell the talking, but you refuse to show up for anything other than Monster and won't give it a chance, so I have a hard time taking your suggestions seriously. If you'll help, then good. We've got a freshmen orientation coming up again and a meeting tomorrow. I hope you'll suggest some of your stuff as well and vote on what we have to show.

Okay. I'm glad you finally decided to list some series. However, for the amount of fuss you put up about it and how you listed them since you bring it up often, two series seems like a small number. That's really not a lot for us officers to work with.

I believe the "constructive criticism" of your post on our duties was made as a threat on our character and a complaint that we don't do enough. So, you're saying your constructive criticism is we don't meet your standards? That's not constructive criticism, that's an attack on us. Learn the difference. Constructive criticism is meant with good will, an intent to improve, and a flexibility to work with people. You've shown one.

No. I don't talk when I go to the theater. This is a club meeting, not a theater. We like to think of things as such. If we just wanted to watch films, we'd stay at home. This club has its roots in apartments, the club evolved from those roots.

Finally, you still haven't answered why you won't just do something about your complaints, and given me proof that your beliefs aren't a minority. I was counting all ACTIVE people on the yahoo groups that are interested in the club and couldn't show up to meetings. It still numbers near a hundred. If your group is only 4 or 5 people, then it's not a minority worthy of appealing to "everyone" as you put it.

As for proof of asking, you've been to the meetings. We've asked there. We prefer to ask the more active members. However, if you insist on typed proof I believe there's a few cases on Yahoo groups where we reiterated some announcements on it.

Also, the burden of proof rest on the attacker, not the defendent. You're attacking the way we do things, it's you're job to prove you're right. Otherwise, we have no reason to listen to you on this.

Oh, and I'm quite literate and do read what I write. I'd appreciate it if we keep the name-calling to a minimum. Despite some rudeness that I fully believe you deserve after multiple offences, I still prefer to keep at least 90% of my posts on the topic.

Do you need posters made for the summer? Does SPOON have anyway I could print out fliers? How about a new webpage? Its been ages since that has been updated. Obviously sometimes running meetings is a horrible strain on your time and you can't possibly do anything else for spoon.

A lot of my complaints are issues I can't change in my current position. This hasnt sunk in yet so I guess it needs to be repeated.

Yes, pointing out your failure as an officer is just mud-slinging. You feel the need to have me answer your questions, why not answer some of mine?

This question has been answered multiple times. Please reread this thread.

See above answer.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_SPOON_Boar...hp?showtopic=34

Its even on the first page. Even you should be able to find it.

Fixed your typo.

Yeah, its entirely my fault. My ideas were openly debated and thought about, and none were ever rejected out of hand. It also seems to be stubborn-headedness to ask people to be polite...and not when you throw a fit when they call you on it?

You are also asking me to show members respect and dignity when your own actions at meetings drives people from the club? The irony here is immense.

wow this thread blew up overnight, tl;dr I'll make a few quick points before I head home. Cya'll at the 2nd meeting, don't tear each other's throats out before I get back

1. We need an officer meeting before the first showing of the fall semester to sort out all the crap we're arguing about in this thread (advertising, balanced schedule blah blah)

2. Summer schedule - from previous experience so few people attend during the summer that officers might as well use the meetings to expose each other to random possible animes to show during the fall. You can't really vote on stuff you haven't seen at least an episode or two of before.

3. showing fansubs of the latest anime - dun worry about that, I have a harddrive full of stuff I wanna share (:

Because its impossible to change the date in the thread when you update it?

Actually you have shown more shows, and some new shows. I like Monster, and though Bleach had potential. I really stopped showing up when the rest of my friends stopped showing up. Out of curiosity how many of these shows did you finish?

What are you planning on showing tomorrow and when is the freshman orientation? I have a list of the anime I have that would be legal to show somewhere on this forum. Does any of it look like something you would like to show?

Actually, you are in a position to do that kind of thing. You have a printer, you have at least MSpaint I assume. That's the power to make fliers. You know Jerry. He's the one that updates the webpage. Ask him for the password and maybe some dreamweaver help. You have access to ALL the resources to do these. Ask to do them if you want to, if you're not offering to do them though, then you really have no room to complain. Titles don't mean anything really. The power our positions give are minimal, the rest we do on our own accord.

Also, yes, saying that I'm a failure as an officer isn't a fact, it's your opinion. Constructive criticism usually contains some facts. Also, if that's the best case you can give me, I don't think you really have room to stand that says you've given constructive criticism.

You're the only member I have no respect for Vitzh. I started by giving you respect, but your constant inability to find a middle-ground lost that. I'll still listen, because that's what I do, but I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt on everything. If you'd read around the board, a lot of people disagree with you on many things. You've given them no heed.

We've also openly debated your ideas, but your inability to address other people's concerns has killed most of them quickly. You've never given in on anything. That's why nothing has gotten through.

Also, if you could point me to the questions that aren't merely attacks at me, I'd be glad to answer them. As far as I read, all of them have been insults worded as questions.

Well now that you did read something a little reading comprehension would go a long way. If you take my suggestion that officers have better defined roles to be an attack on your character that says a lot about your view of your own role in the club. Why does this suggestion threaten you so?

If you arent going to talk at one public showing why talk at the other? This is not a private club meeting, or a meeting in an apartment. People dont come to anime clubs to hear you yell things, they come to watch anime.

Learn to read the thread.

What an amazingly bad metric. I mean, you could use something like average number of members at each meeting but then you wouldnt have a point! Why not just make up a few more statistics now?

Oh come now. You can do better then that. You should have to find me exact yahoo group emails that were sent out.

0.o
Thats not even what you are discussing. By your logic since you are attacking my character you should have to prove everything you said about me.

Lol.

You seem quite happy to make personal attacks. How about you start a civil discussion in a different thread? If that is what you would prefer I can abide by that.

I dont have a printer.

Last time I talked to Jerry he didnt know the password. I also cant request the password without a title(funny that). Could you get those for me?

Read my example about why a title would give me power to change what I think needs to be changed.

Except it wasnt. Please reread my constructive criticism. It really isnt an attack on you, but something the club should do. It will result in a better anime club.

T.T

If you read the board you will see people who agree with me as well. I have also had disagreements with people and discussed the issue with them. This isnt just my inability to give any middle ground.

Page two I think. There were a lot of questions in the response to your tl ; dr post. Please answer some of them.

Well I guess none of us have the password then. What do you mean by title? So that means unless someone can find the password we'll have to start fresh.

The next freshman orientation is in June 22, I misread the date on that before, but we still need fliers and something to show and impress people for the next orientation. We also need to plan the Beginning of the Year Pool Party.

And you did calll us incompetant and basically said that Brian had a stupid position in the club and was basically useless. It kinda gets people mad when you say that.

And what is tl;dr?

tl;dr = too long; didn't read

everyone is online tonight lol, go to sleep

I have asked numerous people about your "constructive criticism", and all of them took it as you insulting us.

Also, people mosh pit at rock concerts but quietly listen at operas. Same concept, but different atmosphere. We try to have a relaxed atmosphere. That is I don't see it as a problem.

If you had read the yahoo groups from time to time, you'd know that a lot of these people haven't made it because of busy semesters or fridays not being conveint. Also, some people just don't show up to ALL of the meetings. This happens. There is still a very large number of people there, and even if we go straight by people that show up at the meetings (an average of 8-10 each meeting) this semester, you're still out-numbered.

Also, Yes. We are discussing you attacking us. This is how this started Vitzh. You brought up complaints, we addressed them, then you started attacking people and how we do things. This is how it's happened many times. Once again, you've gotten off topic.

You still haven't answered WHY you can't do something in the club. You have the power to do it, all you need to do is say you're going to do it. Delegating duties to someone else and calling it constructive criticism is something a manager of a major company does. I'm not seeing through it.

You've been given chances at civil discussions and turned them down. You've lost your chance at it. You don't seem to grasp this. I've made personal attacks I feel were deserved as well as you made yours, but my entire argument doesn't center around them. All you've done is divert the argument into person attacks. I've had to PRY the facts out of you.

I gave you topics to address in my last post and asked for your questions. You ignored these. I'll be willing to post them again.

1. Why don't you do something about your complaints other than compain?
2. Prove that you are not a negligible minority?
3. Insulting the leaders is not constructive criticism. If necessary give another example that did not have malicious intentions?

Also, I reiterate that the proof is not on the burden of the people defending an argument, but if I must, I will go and find some of the announcements on yahoo groups.

All you've done is bring up issues and offer no solutions. I want answers, solutions, arguments on the pertenent points, and a willingness to change your ideas if they don't work. If you can't do this, then there's really nothing to talk about.

Also, I'm still waiting for these questions you gave me. I'd like a summary of them.

Edit: I missed your second post because I was posting, but I think if you're not going to take the time to read my rebuttal, I have no reason to have to go back and look up all your questions. If you plan on debating this, I would prefer you read all of the points instead of just selecting your favorites. We really can't be expected to listen to everything you have to say if you refuse to listen to us. It's a common courtesy, even in debate. Wouldn't you agree?

Sorry for the double post here, but if you want an example of how to talk to us so we'll listen to you, Neihaus just gave a very good example. They gave their opinion on some shows, I pointed out why a couple wouldn't work, and the user responded by recognizing the points made and either agreeing with them or further explaining their points.

Seen Here: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_SPOON_Boar...p?showtopic=110

The reason your ideas get shot down a lot is because you tend to just reiterate the idea and say we just don't know any better. For instance, in the suggestion thread you started, near the beginning, you gave an idea for a schedule that we pointed out didn't leave room in case we had to miss a meeting. In reply, you basically told us that we just didn't plan well enough and that this would work. This doesn't recognize the concern from the other point. Instead of revising most of your ideas in the suggestion thread, you just argue them. This is why most of your ideas don't get through.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_SPOON_Boar...owtopic=34&st=0

We've been trying to tell you that we'd be willing to work with you, but you've never really shown the proper courtesy for it. A forceful tone gets you nowhere. A polite and flexible tone is not only appreciated, but very helpful. This is what we want. Not complaints and trying to mold things your way.

I thought you could use the example.

Mmm...drama.

This is almost as bad as the LUG...

OK I have the password to the site
basically the SPOON page is off in some other directory on the server, like /orgsweb/ or something like that and so not as convenient to get to as my home directory. Basically about 100 years ago I got the admin right on the spoon directory so I could edit it. I haven't done anything honestly because I am dumb and I forget. Once I reember I am still not sure what to put on the site. hell I have some free this in the next couple months if someone will help me start this site I can get it up and going. I am just not sure what we need anymore.

The website can be updated, I am jsut forgetful and lazy.

And why is all this stuff becoming so personal? Thanks to the to internet for giving people a place where they can attack each other without feeling bad because the person isn't there in front of them.

Could someone please clarify as to where we will be meeting tonight? Have we procured the phase 2 clubhouse or will it be at Melissa's?

It's not that things are so personal, but that I've received multiple complaints about Vitzh's behavior and how he's treated members on the board. On top of this, after Melissa giving him many chances and extending her patience way beyond what most would deem necessary, Vitzh has continued to spend most of his time merely ragging on and insulting the ways we do things. What advice we do get from him isn't given as advice but commands or stern warnings. On top of that, I've kept up with this board, and he's shown multiple accounts of harassing other members of this board. Also, for someone that claims to listen to other people's ideas, Vitzh has ignored or passed off a lot of people's points on a lot of topics, and has actually said at some points that the officers should just decide the show without listening to the member. Let's continue this with the generally elitist attitude toward the other members where he gone and outright called the members that don't agree with him immature. Finally, we have a person complaining how we run things who hasn't even bothered to show up for more than one show for 5 meetings, and apparently has not read multiple posts on this board related t topics debated at him. He's been arguing against something that as far as I'm concerned, he's only half-informed on.

This is a short list of what I consider damnable offences. I've given Vitzh multiple chances to redeem himself whether he wants to believe it or not, and instead of being the proactive changing force he claims to be, he's continued to be an unhealthy element of dissention in this club. His constant negativity combined with an absolutely low activity in the club, but a determined insistence that we should listen to everything he says without question is bringing a rather negative vibe to this club. I can say with complete confidence, that people seem to be enjoying themselves at the meetings and relaxing a lot more when Vitzh was not there. This is essentially a way of telling him that he's crossed the line one too many times, and he needs to shape up his act. The force at which I've had to use to get simple questions out of him like which shows he has reccommended in the past, what constructive criticism he has given on this board, and why he doesn't chip in to help himself is ridiculous, and I'm still not convinced of his answers on all of them since his case of constructive criticism was clearly meant as a jab at the officer, and his constant complaint is that he doesn't have the power to contribute anything to the club despite a few examples of what he could do. Constructive criticism is not given with a general sarcastic or damning tone, and he still does not understand that he doesn't always need to ask to help. If a group of fourteen year old boy scouts can learn to help without being ordered to, it amazes me that a college student is incapable of it.

As for it being on the internet, that doesn't matter. If he wants to violently debate this in public as well, I will gladly do so. He has crossed too far over the line for me to be polite with him anymore. Actually, I'd welcome it since he wouldn't have to skip over entire posts and act like he read them. Maybe in a verbal communication, he'd understand exactly why we don't appreciate his attitude. However, as it stands, he hasn't stayed long enough in a meeting for months for us to even so much get a word in with him, unless he wants to talk during Monster, which I assume he does not.

I treat every member of this club with respect and as an equal at first. Everyone's opinions have equal weight in my mind until they prove themselves to be untrustworthy of that respect. Vitzh has proven himself untrustworthy on numerous occassions, and yet, I've given him far more patience than I give anyone else. I apologize that some of the members have to be caught up in this, but I feel we should not have to deal with Vitzh anymore. If he insists on everything being all or nothing on his ideas, then he will get nothing. He hasn't taken the time to establish any common ground, and acts poorly in negotiations. He assumes that by posting something in passing on a message board, and never bringing it up elsewhere that he has done enough for his ideas to be noticed. Most of his "suggestions" are buried under heated debates. Finally, he often REFUSES to talk to us in person despite Melissa asking him to talk with her about things at meetings. That is often why his ideas aren't used. It's not the volume of them, it's the quality, and his ideas seem to only come wrapped in insults, sarcastic remarks, and anti-establishment revolutionist zeal.

Oh, and I don't consider...

to be constructive criticism or helpful at all to the conversation. I don't like being spoken at with that kind of threatening and self-important tone, and I don't think anyone else does either.

To Richard:

To answer your question, Richard, I haven't heard anything about whether we got the clubhouse or not. I think Melissa might not have gotten the chance to post about it due to being side-tracked with the rest of this thread, but I would go ahead and meet at the Phase II clubhouse unless she tells you otherwise, and if we don't have it, we can just go to her house. That should be a decent solution to the problem. I'll try to get her to post on it as soon as she can, but she's currently at her job so it may be a bit later in the afternoon.