http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8297216.stm


Shameless Plug:

On Tuesday 3rd November at my church we're doing an evening with Pat McGee, one of the Brighton Bombers, and Harvey Thomas, then Tory Party Conference organiser and Margaret Thatcher's Director of Communications who was injured in the blast.

The two men have become friends and the evening will be a conversation between them, hosted by Jeremy Vine, about their reconciliation.

If anyone is interested then let me know. I'll be putting a page on our church website about it this week, I'll post the link when I've done so.



You can come along just to shake the hand of someone who tried to blow up Margaret Thatcher, if nothing else...

:tiphat:

:tumbleweed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1480081.stm

Oi, geezer, should be a good event, with all sorts of difficult questions and issues raised..."The Troubles " is one subject I have never got my head round despite long lasting and in depth effort...and I lived through the IRA's mainland offensive...

Would be interested to hear what the key points of agreement are on the 3rd...

What is for sure is that the Brighton bomb changed democracy, and not for good, in terms of access to politicians...

Can you ask a question of Harvey for me? "Why are you still a Conservative?"...

I don't understand all this forgiveness stuff when it was an action that took lives. It's like giving the seal of approval to terrorists.

No it isn't.

EDIT: Although feel free to come along and make that point :D


Forgiveness is about you not holding on to bitterness or resentment about something, it's not about saying that whatever the person did to you was OK. What Harvey has done is forgiven Pat for the actions which Pat did which affected him. Other people who were affected may not have been able to. I guess that's part of what the evening will be about. I think it'll be an interesting debate.

Oi, mush, I'd have gone with the Psalm 22 gambit...although it does raise the question would he have been so forgiving if say he's lost a child or wife or same sex partner or parent in the bombing?...

It is. It's like confessional, say sorry and god forgives. Tell that to the parent of a murdered child.

True Story.

Although i do agree with her first sentence.

See my edit.

Believing that someone can be forgiven and gain redemption for the crimes in their past does not equate to giving the seal of approval to that crime.

What he did was wrong then and it's wrong now, that hasn't changed.

So he's doing it to make himself feel better? I'm sure the families of the dead victims will understand.

That's an interesting question. I'll add it to my list of things to ask him.
His wife was pregnant at the time and while he was waiting to be rescued he did think about them and worry he wouldn't be around for them or get to see his child.

No, he's doing it because, as Christians, we're commanded to.
But holding on to bitterness or resentment is not helpful.
Humanly we can only forgive someone for what they've done for us which is what Harvey has done.
He's not forgiving Pat or any other IRA member for things they've done to anyone else because it's not his place to.

so if it's wrong why should the bombers be forgiven?

Oi, pwincess, McGee hasn't said sorry though...so perhaps it's more to do with psychology closure for the victim...something along the lines of the well known, possibly Chinese, aphorism " Anger is an acid that does more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than anything onto which it is poured"...

so compassion for fellow humans is lower down the list of prorities compared to dishing out forgiveness to murderers?

Oi, pwincess, yer man Harvey says it's a personal thing, Tebbit, for instance, whose wife was put in a wheelchair as a direct result of the bombing, hasn't forgiven and I am guessing neither as Lady Iron Knickers...

I think some well placed anger is healthy, it shows compassion and highlights injustice. Otherwise what happens, we all nuc each other and hug it out?

Because people can see the error of their ways and try to atone for their sins?

Forgiveness isn't easy. Nobody would suggest it is. But it does actually give closure. If you hold on to bitterness not only is it likely to manifest itself sooner or later physically, but it also means you are still allowing the person who has injured you (either physically or mentally) to dictate and control your feelings, which is handing them a kind of victory. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you condone what the person did, or minimise it in any way.

Well no since he hasn't apologised. And it doesn't bring the dead back does it.
But God is down with it so it's all ok.

I've no idea how that follows on from what I just said.
Also, above you said:

Isn't the fact they did something wrong the reason why there is an issue of forgiveness? You don't forgive someone who hasn't wronged you.

Forgiving someone isn't condoning what they did. It's because you think what they did was wrong that there's an issue of deciding whether to forgive them or not.


Anyway, like I said, this is what this evening is about and I imagine there will be time given for people to ask questions so I guess these issues will be raised. Should be interesting.

Oi, pwincess, that's what the saying is about - vent your anger, don't let is fester inside you...

As the foolishly besuited hawker of crap butter once sang "Anger is an en-er-gy"...

I've really no idea how you jumped to that conclusion.

Essentially while Harvey is busy forgiving, he's fogetting that people have been murdered. So in the spirit of Christinaity shouldn't he feel a sense of injustice towards his murdered colleagues?

Oi, mush, should you just forgive her?...


it's a thin line between forgiveness and sanctimony isn't it?

because God tells you to forgive

:lol:

Yes - because he has forgiven us. It's not a one-way street. All of us have things we need to be forgiven for.

I get that Noz, but there is no way I could fogive a cold bloodied murderer.

No he's not.
He's forgiving Pat for what Pat did to him.
He's not forgiving him for the way the bomb affected anyone else, it's not Harvey's place to. That's between Pat and those other people. As Nozza has said, Tebbit has not forgiven Pat - understandable since the bomb affected him more seriously. Whether Harvey would have been able to had it affected him in the same way, who knows?

Forgiveness does not condone the action you're forgiving. Quite the reverse. If Harvey condoned Pat's actions there would be no need for forgiveness.

Such as murder? Child rape? Nicking pick and mix from Woolies.

Yes I know, hence me saying he's putting his feelings above the injustice for murdered victims. Not very Christian that is it.

I honestly don't see how that follows.

I've heard parents of murdered children talk about how they needed to be able to forgive their childs' killer in order to come to terms with the loss and move on.

I know it's not something I could do personally but I understand how they don't want the bitterness to consume them.

If a victim wants to communicate with and make peace with a perpretator, such as in this case and it helps the victim move on then fair enough.

Not the same as suggesting that all perpetrators of all crimes should be forgiven.

All I'm saying is if you think murder is wrong, how can you forgive a murderer?

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/ind...showtopic=15770

:coffee:

By that logic you can never forgive anyone for anything you think is wrong.
And surely it's only if you think someone has done something wrong that there is an issue of whether to forgive.

In any case, Harvey is not forgiving Pat for the murder of the people who died in the explosion, only for the way it affected him. It's not up to Harvey to forgive Pat for any other aspects of the incident, that's between Pat and those people.

Interestingly, that's what we're calling the event.



(it's not actually, but it should be!)

Letters, are you taught to forgive people for crimes against humanity?

And do you not think that becoming friends with a murderer is going further than simply forgiving someone for how they affected their life?