http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8332416.stm

Something seriously fucked with society right now. The little shits should be castrated.

10?

Bloody hell, that's messed up. Their parents have screwed up badly I guess.

:(

:rose: Society







nothing to do with the decline of religion of course. oh no

"Right now"? You make it sound like it's only something recent.

:goodpost:

society might be declining in some ways (e.g. less stable families, complete inter-generational breakdown and mistrust) but we haven't descended from a pre 60s utopia, has always been messed up.

I shall resist the urge to make comments about vicars and priests abusing children because this case is sickening if (as it seems to be) true.

Very sad, very sad indeed

Disgusting.

That too

My youngest son is 10 and I was trying to imagine the whole thing and it's just incomprehensible for the most part

What kind of stupid logic/point is that?

What kind of stupid illogical point are you?

Letters made a comment about the decline of religion which I took to mean implied that the decline in religion (cough) is a contributing factor to kids raping kids.

Want me to explain in more detail how that works?

:lol:

:console:

I know.

Yes i do. But only if you dont mind me making you look silly when you've finished. :good:

Well, I feel standards of behaviour have declined in the past 50 years.
Religion has declined in that time too.
I don't believe that's a co-incidence. I may be wrong.

Your comment isn't that relevant, yes there are some vicars/priests who have done some terrible things but I would suggest those are extremely rare cases so isn't really a counter-argument to what I believe.

Every generation perceives the following one to have suffered a decline in moral standards. However for every decline that there is, there is an improvement. You say that you think there's been a decline in the last 50 years? I'm guessing some of that is due to chavs and rowdiness caused by youths. But on the other hand 50 years ago there was more widespread bigotry and around that time things like homosexuality were even outlawed, I think. Whether or not there were things in the law about it, the treatment of minorities, single mothers and people who have children outside of wedlock has improved considerably. Even if there's no real improvement in moral standards, any decline is evened out.

Religion and ethics are non-overlapping magisteria as Gould said of religion and science. You can have both easily but they are independent of one another as well. So yes, I believe you are wrong when you make that assertion.

Your comment was a pretty throwaway one or you wouldn't have put a line through it?

I take your point though I'm more of the mind that family has a bigger part to play than religion. The decline in families taking responsibility for their own, teaching morals and dealing with consequences is far more telling.

My comment was relevant to me by the way. I was in the church choir aged 8 and our vicar was arrested for spying on us when we got changed!

Sexy kids is one of the leading causes of paedophilia.








Sorry.

I put a line through it because it's an opinion I've expressed on here previously and been shouted down. I didn't really want to get into that debate again because it just goes round and round and neither view is easy to back up.

True Story.

But shh, dont tell anybody.

Really messed up that kids that age even KNOW about sex let alone go around RAPING younger children :censored:

to be frank Christianity is far more than a behaviour management tool, works based religions (all about doing good things) like Islam and Judaism emphasis doing good deeds and have whole society management systems for this reason.

Christianity doesn't work like that and sinning less is a side effect not the point of being a Christian.

As LG said you can have ethics without religion, the two are obviously linked but I think revival is something to be desired for much greater reasons than social improvement.

I know.

So does Christianity although it's true that it's not the way to gain salvation.
But the teaching isn't that we can go around doing whatever we like and then it's a presto chango deathbed confession and that's OK then.

of course.

Which is the basis for my belief about this.

Maybe but I think it would be a side effect.

I think Handy makes a good point about families though and the rise of broken families is probably another factor in all this.

Whilst I have no facts to back up this claim, I wouldn't necessarily say religion is waning, just maybe Christianity in many western cultures where it has held dominance for many years.

They reckon 1/4 of the worlds population is Islamic, so I wouldn't say religion is exactly falling.

The fact that kids are out there doing this, really, in my humble opinion, has little to do with religion.

I think that's about right but I think religion in this country has declined - as opposed to changed to, say, Islam although that is a factor.

Yeah, I wouldn't say people are converting to Islam from Christianity in the UK, per say, but people are probably getting disillusioned with religion in general, as a concrete way of explaining the meaning of existence and the perception of reality in the face of much scientific evidence which tends to contradict it, or, to which religion will alter itself in order to become more inline with that of scientific evidence and theory.
Though of course science still fails to explain how the origin of existence came to 'be' in the first place - perhaps they would argue the same thing as the religious - it just 'is'.

That aside, a decrease could also well be due to the separation of church and state which is making its way into western cultures, but is yet to do so really in many others.
(Though I believe many laws in the west still reek of religious motivations).

Not that I have any real knowledge of it, but eastern governance still seem to be heavily laden with religious dogma.

Meh, this has all swayed off point though ;)

Religion has DEFINITELY declined in the past 50 years.
waits for "how do you know?" comment
50 years ago, it would be strange to not go to church every Sunday. Now, at least in my school, religious people are by far in the minority; if you take a random sample of about 30 kids, at LEAST 4/5 will be atheists/agnostics, with maybe one Christian and a few 2nd gen. immigrant Muslims the only believers.

The decline in religion has coincided with the rise of the Chavs, but it's also coincided with the decline in homophobia, racism and sexism. Go figure.

that is this country only tbh

look at other countries like China, South Korea, Brazil, Nigeria, Uganda and others where Christianity is growing.

overall Christianity is growing (through conversions, not merely through reproducing en masse) even if for now it is only really believed by a minority within Europe.

But that is the point isn't it? Religion is waning in the western world and we hear more and more ridiculous pathetic tales like this in the western world, especially about children, who need direction and structure more than anyone- which is something you cannot accuse religion of not providing.

Simply, 10 year old boys raping 8 year old girls is unheard of in practising Islamic countries. Children impregnating children doesn't happen their. Children murdering children doesn't occur their either- and guess what, these tales were largely unheard of in this part of the world when Christainity was widely practised.

Now consider this, of all the main religions Islam is seen as the most violent and sexist one, lets agree for the sake of this argument it is. So why do children who grow up in these Islamic states seem more respectful of themselves and their peers. I mean if they witness first hand the daily subjugation of women, the disproportinate severity of the judical system (hands being chopped off for stealing, floggings, stonings) and encouragement to actively hate a certain people (remember this is worst case scenario)- then if children are products of their enviornment, surely a lot of what is going on in London should be happening in the mean streets of Riyadh, no? So it's either we're making this stuff up about Islam or we're missing a trick when discrediting religion and its role in a modern society. Could it be the direction, respect, structure and boundries religion provides in a childs life, is a role 10000 football fields, 80000 swimming pools, 60000 community centres and 1000 social networking sites will never be able to replace?

Children need to be told what to do, they cannot be given unbridled freedom and encouraged to fill in the blanks on philosophical and moral questions. They just don't have enough experience to do so. At least in a religious society you know that people will share similar moral standards and if parents are not around (which is inevitable) the closest adult will reinforce a similar message to what the child is use to hearing.

My cousin is a staunch aethist. He lives in the States now but recently started going to church again. Being suprised, I asked why? Well he told me nothing has changed, he still fails to believe in God because of his personal experiences and all the wickedness in this world blah blah blah.........but he's got a young family and wants them to grow up the way we did, "balanced".

Stunned I pressed him and asked, what he meant by that "So do you want them to believe in God, a lie?" He laughed a bit "Well, for the meantime, till they're old enough to know better".

And I thought about it, if you can lie to your child there is Santa just so he's good for christmas, would it kill you to tell him God exists and watches your every move?

To me it's almost insane to argue the downfall of religion in this socitey is not a major reason we have unstable familes and all these crazy children running around with no appreciation for boundries nor structure.

the focus of Christianity isn't about the things God can see us doing and trying to do good things to impress him, I'm a sinner and mess up a lot, if I thought how I behave decided what God thought of me I'd give up altogether.

Christianity is all about grace, that God gives us the things we don't deserve not the things we do.

Crime and immoral behaviour is rampant in religious countries too, having a religion isn't enough to make people better to one another.

But is this country's socity we're talking about.

Yes, but that does not mean we're free to just do what we like and think "it's OK, I'll just repent, it'll be fine". While acknowledging that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" we are still called to strive to follow the commandments and become Christlike.

I'm not saying being religious makes you a better person but it does (or should) mean you're at least trying to abide by a set of rules you believe are set out by a higher power.

Another one who missed the point

Letters implied that a decline in religion contributes to sexual/child abuse. This argument relies on a person believing that religious followers have less tendency to commit these sorts of crimes.

If that were true then you would never hear of priests/vicars (and a significant number I might add) committing such acts against children. And I've read many a biography about children being abused by their families despite them being very religious. What people say when they go to church/mosque whatever doesn't necessarily translate into what they actually do does it?

Nothing to do with me being irreligious - it just happens to be true.

Didnt miss the point at all, but today i'm not as bored, so on you go. :good:

:goodpost:

It's about statistics and probabilities.
Child abuse is committed by religious people, it is also committed by people who don't follow any religion.

The key question is statistically who are most likely to offend, religious people or non? And I don't know.

But just because it happens in religious circles does not refute the point. And my point wasn't about child abuse per se but about a general decline in standards.

Shh, dont tell anybody.

This is by far the biggest logical fallacy people make, mixing up possible and probable, misunderstanding statistics and probabilities.

I'd tend to go with LG on this.

Parts of society are failing, but other parts (formally racist, sexist, homophobic etc) are improving.

Doesn't make it right that parts of our society are failing, but it does show that it's not all falling to bits.

It's too difficult a problem to pinpoint exactly where or why society falls down, but the most simple and common factors will be wealth and education. It's a broad brush, but I think you'd find most problems are created because of the inequities in those two areas.

Its everything to do with the decline of moral standards and family values - ie things that religion, for all its detractors, encourages.

The way I see it, those who dismiss religion for being irrelevant; naive or outdated forget the beneficial effects that it may have had on society, and that we have nothing to step into the vacuum.

To an extent, Western society is on the brink, if not of collapse, then of serious social upheaval. Its happened before - the fall of the Roman Empire being a good example. The disgarding of any moral compass will have far reaching effects.

You are ignoring the effect that:

a) Enforced celibacy (at least in the Catholic Church), and

b) A cycle of child abuse

Have in these situations.

You don't need to be religious to have empathy and high morals.

My children are a perfect example of that

No, you don't.
The question is, does following a religion make you statistically more likely to have good morals?
And I don't know the answer to that but given that morality is a big part of all major religions, there is some reason for thinking that may be so.

Don't get me wrong - thats not what I am saying at all.

Of course there will always be right thinking and responsible members of society. I am making a more general point. That the general decline in moral standards and values, which is indisputable, has been worsenend by people turning their backs on what religion stands for.

In a sense, if you teach your kids moral values values and standards of behavior, you are doing no different to what religion teaches people.