Title: JCdM Murder Witness: Rachel Wilson
Description: Sitting opposite Jean Charles
Description: Sitting opposite Jean Charles
The Antagonist - October 31, 2008 04:00 AM (GMT)
Both Rachel Wilson and her boyfriend at the time of the murder, Ralph Livock, have no recollection of Jean Charles leaving his seat at any point before he was executed. Nor do they have any recollection of Jean Charles being pinned into his seat by anyone, rather that he was executed seated from approximately a foot away.
From the 30th October inquest transcript:
| QUOTE |
| p58 2 MR HILLIARD: Had you seen Mr de Menezes move from his seat 3 at any time? 4 A. I didn't see that. I was looking at the people with 5 guns, trying to work out what they were doing, but 6 I wasn't aware of (inaudible). 7 Q. So you are looking at the people with guns, but not 8 aware of Mr de Menezes moving from his seat? 9 A. That's what I'd say, yes. |
Rachel Wilson later finds herself in the sights of another gun being pointed at the single door on the right hand side of the carriage:
| QUOTE |
| 9 Q. So you have gone towards the single door that's on your 10 right, and I think you told us earlier, was there 11 somebody at that door? 12 A. Yeah, there was a man pointing a gun at me in the 13 doorway. 14 Q. Pointing a gun at you? 15 A. Well, at the door which I was in. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. Because I was frightened, because -- 18 Q. Yes. Did he say anything to you? 19 A. No, he just stepped to one side and very calmly 20 indicated for me to go around him, and then I realised 21 he wasn't interested in me. 22 Q. Right. 23 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Was it at this point that you realised 24 that this man, anyway, probably wasn't a terrorist? 25 A. Yes. p62 1 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: When you began to think maybe it is 2 police. 3 A. I still didn't know who they were. 4 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Didn't go that far but not what you had 5 thought they were? 6 A. Yes. |
This is immediately after the relief of realising nobody with a gun was interested in her:
| QUOTE |
| p60 10 Q. Did you stay in your seat or not? 11 A. I stayed in my seat, yes. 12 Q. At what point did you leave? 13 A. Well, I did not want to move because I did not want to 14 draw attention to myself, so I waited until the shots 15 had finished and then they didn't turn their attention 16 to me, so I thought it was time to leave. I decided to 17 leave then. |
Rachel Wilson also thought she was witnessing an odd prank:
| QUOTE |
| p63 3 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: It's all right, it's the best you can 4 do. The question is this: when you heard the shouting, 5 before you saw any of these men coming into the 6 carriage, did that fact cause you any concern or alarm 7 or any heightened sense of tension as if something was 8 about to go wrong? 9 A. No, because I didn't notice anything, I went back to 10 reading, so it was -- 11 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: The newspaper? 12 A. It was only when the people were there and even at that 13 point, I remember thinking, "That's really 14 inappropriate, given what's happened yesterday". 15 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: It is really what? 16 A. Because I thought they were joking. 17 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: That is the next bit I wanted to ask 18 you about. When you actually then saw the four men 19 entering the carriage, even though you saw what they 20 had, at that stage, I mean, it may be a question of 21 disbelief but at that stage did you feel a sense of 22 rising tension or alarm? 23 A. No. 24 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: What did you think it was? 25 A. At first I thought they were chasing a friend and p64 1 playing a game, and it was only when I saw the blood 2 that I realised that that wasn't the case, but it could 3 be disbelief perhaps. 4 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: At what point did you realise that this 5 was something far more serious? 6 A. When I looked down on my hands and there was blood on my 7 hands -- 8 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: It wasn't until after the first shot 9 had been fired? 10 A. No. |
A policeman friend that Ms Wilson called had no idea what was going on either:
| QUOTE |
| p62 7 MR HILLIARD: You got off the train, is this right, we can 8 summarise this, but met up with Ralph again and then got 9 on to another train that took you to Pimlico. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. There it was you saw the police, and in the early 12 afternoon, by that time you had made a witness statement 13 to them? 14 A. Yes, it's probably worth mentioning that I still didn't 15 know who they were, because I called a friend of mine 16 who is a policeman, and said, "Do you know if there has 17 been anything happening today?" He didn't know 18 anything, so I still didn't know who they were. 19 MR HILLIARD: No idea who they were. Thank you very much. |
The legendary Mr Mansfield steps up to the plate with:
"Thank you, no questions."
Mr Stern, who represents two murderers, even though both eye witnesses only remember one shooter, elicits a note about the words in Ms Wilson's statement not being her own words after they were "policified".
| QUOTE |
| p68 21 Q. You saw an incident and you put it this way in your 22 statement, just before the incident, you say: 23 "The next events I do not know I am recalling 24 totally accurately as everything happened very quickly 25 and simultaneously." p69 1 A. I would say details are difficult but chain of events, 2 I think I remember well. 3 Q. Yes. But that was the way you put it in your statement; 4 yes? You can have a look at it if you would like. 5 A. No, I am not sure what you are getting at. 6 Q. Don't worry about what I am getting at. I am just 7 asking you at the moment whether or not that's the words 8 you used in your statement? 9 A. I don't think -- the statement here are not my exact 10 words, because they got changed by the lady who took my 11 statement and policified so -- |
Further confirmation that de Menezes didn't leave his seat:
| QUOTE |
| p72 24 Did you 25 ever see that man, first of all the man who was shot, p73 1 ever leave his seat? 2 A. I didn't see that, no. 3 Q. I think as you fairly pointed out, you were looking at 4 the man with the larger gun to your left; is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the first time you looked over and saw the man, was 7 it after the shots I think you told us, or as the shots 8 were being fired? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. You were aware of shots, I think is the way you put it. 11 So again let me put this to you just to see if you can 12 help with this. I have asked you the first part, did 13 you see the man in the seat advance towards someone? 14 A. I didn't. |
The point is laboured and once again Stern pushes the idea of de Menezes being pinned into his seat as we get another confirmation that no warning issued:
| QUOTE |
| p74 7 Q. That's very fair. So far as one of them shouting, 8 "Armed police", that's as you have told us something 9 that you did not hear? 10 A. Definitely not. 11 Q. Had you heard it, you would have understood that they 12 were police officers, that's what you have told us. 13 I think you have also told us that you didn't see the 14 man pushed back in his seat because you never saw him 15 leave the seat? 16 A. Correct. |
Earlier in the transcript Wilson suggests that de Menezes was shot in the back of the head. This is discussed again on page 76:
| QUOTE |
| 7 Q. Can you just help with this, and again I do not want to 8 upset you in any way about this, but how the shooting 9 occurred? You have heard what your boyfriend has 10 said -- forgive me saying your boyfriend, he may not be 11 any more, I don't know. 12 A. He is. 13 Q. But he's described the man standing, and about 12 inches 14 away, is that your recollection or is it different, or 15 have you got no recollection now? 16 A. I remember him being kind of leaned against the doorway 17 and coming from behind, but I wouldn't give an estimate 18 of distance. If I was I would say the gun was about 19 that far away (indicated). 20 Q. When you say leaning against the doorway, you mean the 21 person firing the shot? 22 A. Leaning against the back window, shoulder against the 23 back window. 24 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: What they call the glass dividers. 25 A. No, against the back of the train. p77 1 SIR MICHAEL WRIGHT: Against the back of the -- the side of 2 the train. 3 A. So the windows that were opposite me. |
After the men with guns boarded the train, a bunch of people got off, exiting via the single door:
| QUOTE |
| p79 10 Further questions from MR HILLIARD 11 MR HILLIARD: Just help with this, you explained how when 12 the men had come on the train, that some people left the 13 train after that, the people who left you said went by 14 the single door. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you help us: had they been sitting down and got up 17 to leave; had they been standing up and left; or have 18 you no idea? 19 A. I really couldn't tell, because I would have gone 20 looking up, looking to see where everybody else was 21 going and looking around. |