Hmm I wonder how things would have been if Sun Ce didn't get hit by a poisoned arrow by Xu Gong's men( no! Sun Ce never died because of the mystic Yu Ji) would Wu have been much more successful if he were still alive?

Hm...yes and no. Had he not been hit, he would have prolly attacked Cao Cao during Guan Du, resulting in either massive pwnage or embarassing failure (Prolly the first one). However, he wasn't as astute a leader as Quan. Zhongmou attracted many able men to Wu, and was shrewd enough to ally himself with Liu Bei.

true but Sun Quan wasn't the warrior type like his brother was... I don't think Sun Ce would have attacked at Guan Du... Zhou Yu would have surely checked him..

Did Sun Ce do anything useful?

Well, yeah. He pacified Jiang Dong and laid the foundation for Wu. Think of him as Cao Cao to Sun Quan's Cao Pi.

Oh, right. That. How could I have forgotten? [/sarcasm]
Ahem. Well, did Sun Ce do anything against Liu Bei, Cao Cao, Liu Biao...any of the present rulers?

well he allied with Cao Cao, Liu Bei, and Lu Bu against Yuan Shu's revolt(Chapter 18 in ROTK).... that's pretty much it...lol

He also was a part of Cao Cao and Yuan Shao's game of "Who can get more allies." He died while Chen Zhen, Yuan's envoy, was visiting.

I believe Sun Ce would had made a great leader in that time. He was more of your war-time ruler while Sun Quan was more into politics and administration. Plus he was a great fighter to, & he knew how to use his head most of the times too.

true he was a great leader

Sun Ce would probably have been a good leader but because he was so eager to conquer all other lands, I bet he would have attacked Cao Cao too soon most likely and suffer heavy loss.

Many people don't like Sun Quan much because he did like nothing for Wu, but I think it was wise decision for him to concentrate to protect borders rather than attacking meaninglessly (sp?). Wu was already in good position and had good amount of land, so why going offensive? It was better to stay on defensive and only attack if necessary, like at Chi Bi together with Liu Bei since Cao Cao would have been threat to Wu (eventually, he was).

yes but remember.. because Sun Quan didn't do anything he was heavily defeated at He Fei... plus right after Chibi Sun Quan sent a force to repel Zhang Liao...... only to get a great warrior killed and being backstabbed by Shu... unfortunately i think Sun Ce would have done the same thing, but.. hmm was Zhou Yu injured form the arrow attack when Shu robbed the lands form Wu?

As Sun Tzu said, "Defense is for times of shortage, and attack is for times of surplus." Sun Ce had a strong powerbase to work with, and if I'm not mistaken, Cao's forces where still tied up by Yuan Shao at this time. Many hundreds of thousands of Cao's forces at Chi Bi were actually assimilated elements of the Yuan army, which goes to show just how much strength Cao gained after defeating Yuan Shao- which is to say, the Sun family was in an ideal position to move on the Han heartland. If they were to allign themselves with the Lius, then the Han could be effectively restored before the Three Kingdoms ever came into being. Even during the early years of Sun Quan's reign, these would have been possible options, so his conservative nature may have caused great suffering for his people.

so who was the better leader

In times of war, Sun Ce was the best, undoubtedly.

In times of peace, Sun Quan.

There was very rarely a time of peace under Quan though. He fought with Wei, Shu, incited Shanyue tribesmen and even attempted other foreign endeavors. >_>

Sun Ce died way too early. But even if he did attack Cao Cao there was always a small chance Liu Biao or Huang Zu would hit him from behind even if they were Yuan's allies. I reckon Huang Zu would do something stupid and Sun Ce would have to pull back to take him out(On Zhou Yu's advice). While Cao Cao takes on Yuan Shao, Sun Ce smacks Liu Biao. Sun Ce would be in a great posistion if he took Jing because he could settle that faster than Cao Cao settling the north.

(The rumour that Sun Ce was planning to attack Cao CAo is probably false since he had other things to deal with at the time. Assaulting Cao Cao would almost have been suicide, and probably would have been. Sun Ce wasn't an idiot)

What I'm saying is, if there HAD been peace, Sun Quan would have been the more able ruler. Since the era was constant warfare, Sun Ce would have thrived had he not died.

You're right; Sun Ce wasn't planning to attack Xuchang, at least not right away. He was plotting to attack Xu province, however, because of a certain individual named Chen Deng who was harassing his borders and trying to get the Shanyue to rise up.

Sun Ce is hot stuff, one of the best rulers I ever seem. He is the only one in Wu I like the best. You know who he reminds me of? Handsome Strong Zhao Yun killing enemies by himself in the novel and on top of that like Zhao Yun he doesnt have anything against Shu or Wei

Sun Ce wasn't worrying about Cao Cao because Cao Cao was busy mopping the floor with the Yuans. Ce was like Alexander The Great, they both had potential but they died to early.

yeah, agree. too bad sun ce died in such a young age. he's capable warrior and leader too. though sometimes he can't do something rash, but as long as zhou yu was there, i think it'd be ok. but then again, he died too fast. and he's one fine man that have 1 wife, i think. is that true he had only lady qiao as his wife?

He had a concubine who presumably died of illness before he even met Da Qiao. That was his most famous daughter's mother (the daughter who married Lu Xun). Even if Sun Ce had other concubines, he apparently pined most for Da Qiao, since on his deathbed, he bemoaned the fact that he hadn't gotten to spend nearly enough time with her.

what? he had concubines? :( yeah, right before he died, he talked to da qiao. and who's his daugter's name? any info?

Women's names weren't recorded back then, with very few exceptions.

And pretty much every man of any sort of noble status had concubines for various reasons (political connections, producing heirs, etc), but they only had one favored wife.

All we know about Sun Ce's daughter is that she was born around 188, when Sun Ce was fourteen (thirteen in Western years) to a concubine. Sun Ce married Da Qiao in 198 or so, so the girl was already 10 years old.

thanks a lot, Sun Ce of East Wu. you got much info lol well, yeah at least he only have his love for her. lol well, i know it's silly but whenever i watch da qiao and sun c ein dw makes me think if that kind of man, i mean, sun ce's character is really exist in the ancient time that we all know men have many women. :P and how her daughter married to lu xun?

Sun Ce was a brave, courageous, a good leader, charismatic. If it weren't for him Wu's foundation would probably have not been established at Jiangdong. His leadership and his ability to employ capable people were his best. However he lacked the ability to be a long-term ruler nor politics were his best assets. He's a good general in the battlefields, but not as good as a leader in the area of domestic and rulership affairs. Sun Ce mentioned it himself, "when it comes to being out on the arena to attack and taking over cities Sun Quan couldn't compare to him. But while sitting in the tents establishing laws and bring order to their domain, Sun Ce couldn't compare to Sun Quan."

People compare Sun Ce to the fame Chu general Xiang Yu(項羽) fame as the conqueror of the south, who was also from Jiangdong. Hence he recieved the title "Little Conqueror". They were both brave men, great leaders, and great at winning hearts of people to come to their side, but they lacked long-term political vision to set up their rulership, thats why they ended up dying in their youth.

Sun Ce had political vision, and it had nothing to do with him dying young. The only reason he died is because three nameless people got lucky and ambushed him. He'd already begun playing Liu Biao and Cao Cao off of one another; it was Sun Ce who was able to convince Cao Cao once and for all that Liu Biao was an enemy of the Han, and by doing so, rose his own status.

yeah, agree. it was because the ppl who attacked him when he was alone. he was alone, wasn't he? lol and he was a pretty good leader in my opinion

As for Sun Ce picking off Cao Cao, I think that would probably have never happen. Cao Cao at that time was the most powerful warlord during the era and controlled Northern China which was the most populated region of China. He has 5 Times more resources, land, people, generals, advisors, strategist...the list goes on and on then Sun Ce. As for him picking off Liu Biao, Sun Ce had recently taken over Jiangdong, his man power and resources were not as much as Liu Biao. Why do you think he didn't take or invade Liu Biao's territory?

Can I get the proofs that Sun Ce convinced Cao Cao that Liu Biao was an enemy of the Han. As far as I know Liu Biao was an Imperial family of the Han dynasty, and he was sent their to take his post from the Han Imperial Court as Imperial Protector of Jingzhou. Compared to Sun Ce taking over a territory and claiming it as his own?..lol

As for about Sun Ce's political visions and all his thoughts, I'm just going by what I read from a Chinese historical document and what some Chinese people thought about him. He lacked political views and abilities to govern his people, he had a hot-temper that lead him to his death. It's simple as that..Sun Quan was much better than him.

Eh... keep this in the history section please?
Before this goes to the history section it seems that many people like Sun Ce and he won the hearts of the people too.

Edit: Holy hell this is the history section. I thought this was about DW Sun Ce.

SGZ.

I admire Sun Ce myself actually, I'm part Chinese and I carry the surname Sun(孫) as the Sun family of Wu, who knows somewhere down the family tree I might be related to them. Though I'm more of a Shu fan.

As I mention before Sun Ce was a great leader, people loved him, and he had the ability to be come great in his life time. It's too bad that he had a tragic that he died young, he would have made way more progress in taking over territories than Sun Quan IMO.

I think Sun Ce is more friendly toward officers... something Sun Quan is not good at... Sun Quan at old age anger his officers and neglect them... Examples are Lu Xun and Zhang Zhao..

I wonder.. what would happen if Sun Ce was in control during Chibi instead of Sun Quan? :huh:

I think Chibi would never have happened, because Sun Ce would have taken Jing province long before Cao Cao had a chance. But if Sun Ce somehow came back to life for Chibi, then it'd still be a victory, and he'd still ally with Liu Bei: Sun Ce was quite fond of Liu Bei and called him by his style name.

uh where is this :huh:

In Taishi Ci's SGZ, there's a quote of Sun Ce in which he tells Taishi Ci that he heard about the time that he rescued Kong Rong and Liu Bei (or, as Sun Ce calls him, Xuande). Sun Ce didn't use style names for people he didn't like.

They said if Sun Ce survived the ambush during his hunting,he would be one of the most succesful officers of Wu.He would even probaly started the attack on Xu Chang and conquered it stating that Wei would be destoryed by Yuan Shao.

We don't know that.

But he might have been able to conquer Jing, and would prove to be a big threat to Cao Cao. Most likely, Zhou Yu's "Two Kingdoms" plan will be carried out if this happens.

I disagree Sun Quan was a charasmatic leader who was able to get many talented officers to follow him, don't forget that Lu Su was on the verge of leaving the Sun family's service under Ce but was persuaded by Quan to stay, Quan also instructed Lu Meng to study strategy while Meng had been only a warrior under Ce... also look at the personal Quan attracted to Wu: Gan Ning, Zhu Ran, Ding Feng, Ling Tong, Pan Zhang, Zhuge Jin, Xu Sheng etc.

Also Quan did not send Taishi Ci to his death, Taishi Ci died long before that of illness that was just made for the novel.

Anyway back on topic by himself Sun Ce probably would not of been able to defeat Cao Cao but... with Zhou Yu and Sun Quan as his right and left hand, I think he was a match for anyone, Cao Cao would of been busy fending off Yuan Shao so he could of made a move for the central plains, or maybe went after Liu Biao to avenge his father and gain Jing in the process.

I can't get over how much he accomplished in such a short time, he was only 25yrs old one of the most powerful warlords in China, hell Liu Bei was something like 45+yrs old when he got his first piece of real territory. (Shu)