If god made you fundamentally flawed and your made in gods image doesn't that mean that the creator himself is flawed?

Yeah, well, contradictions in religion is not exactly unknown of.

I'll give you an example:

"Thou shall not kill"

The Crusades: "ARE YOU NOT CATHOLIC? -kills-"

And that sentence is so ambiguous. "Thou shall not kill" what? Humans only? Or animals only? Since it's not specified, I'd imagine it to be speaking of ALL things alive. I don't understand how someone can say something like that and then go and hunt. So does that mean that that person thinks that human life is more valuable than animal live? So then that brings us to discuss the value of life itself.

See. You'd never get a straight answer. It's a circuitous discussion. You would think that you have found an answer only to find that later, that answer is to be contradicted with something else.

Anyhow, now that I've gotten everything completely off topic, I'll leave now.

We weren't made flawed though. And Queenie, you have to learn that trying to use what the Catholics did as an attack on religion is as good as me slating my English friends for what the English did in the war in South Africa.

It's not an attack.

I'm just saying that believeing a rule is one thing, and actually living and doing things by the rules are another.

And humans are so completely flawed. If we weren't flawed, we wouldn't do anything wrong...unless, that is, if you believe that everything that we do is right--which I strongly disbelieve and hope that you're not naive enough to believe.

My point is, the Catholic Church (especially in the Crusades) didn't do things in the name of religion, they claimed to, yes, but if you're "naive" enough to believe that then well...

And I never said what humans do is right, I said we weren't created flawed, but we made ourselves flawed.

Also, on another note. These religion threads, what is the point? The atheists aren't gonna budge, the religious aren't gonna budge, so what is this other than a mere spark that will probably result in a flame war?

Im bored and I find catholics funny.

No point in asking me then, I'm Christian...definitely not Catholic though

Catholic, christian, muslim, they all believe in some kinda god. its a waste of fuckin time if you believe me. We're no different than the fuckin animals in the wild. We arent some pure race that some divine being created, and if we were created by a divine being, our existance is some sort of fucked up joke. We rape the land, we fuck up the people we live with, and all in all spend our time finding one way or another to fuck ourselves up. The first skeletons were found with arrowheads in their bodies, how the fuck can you say we fucked up when obviously we were acting like animals far before we could reason and now that we can reason we still act like fucking animals. We didnt fuck up, we were hardwired like that.

The nuns always told me that everything we do is the "will of God".

I think it's a mere difference of opinion between me and you. I don't want to just accept things as they are. I don't believe things happen because God wanted it to. I think that things happen because of the choices that we've made. If we screwed-up, it'd be our screw-up; it'd be a consequence to a mistake I've made.

So the will of god is self-absorbed and blatantly malignant in nature, what kinda fucking god do you believe in?

The reason I left PC0 in the first place was the constant attacks on my beliefs, you only have to ask nicely you know :rolleyes:

And on a more serious/less emo note, I don't ever tell you guys not to be atheists, I leave you be, why can't you just let me be and respect my beliefs? I don't think I've ever forced them down upon any of you, and if I have well, sorry then.

I didn't start the topic. And we're talking about Catholics, not Christians.

I've been pretty "GOD IS BAD" in the past too, so sorry for that.

And all's I'm saying is that, for me, making my own decisions and being in control of where my life is headed; it's what I live for. If someone is already doing that, there's no point of living for me.

For a lot of people, they've just seen so much crap that they stop believeing there's a God.

Edit: I don't believe in a God.

Ive had my own mom tell me that Im going to hell because she asked me what I believed in and I told her the truth, so I cant really do too much for people attacking beliefs. If its annoying, just dont say anything and remain impartial, thats what I do when that shit happens and it works just fine.

If your mom was on this forum I'd have understood. And I have actually ignored an earlier attack on my beliefs because it was obviously just an attempt to start a flame war.

A lot of people are guilty of that, myself included.

Fuck, cant there be a simple debate on religion without someone taking it too damn seriously?!

My advice is if you beleive in anything sincerely, don't tell anyone on PC0. Unless you feel like defending it to the point that you hate everyone and everything.

replace PC0 with internet and we have a winner

[QUOTE=Narcoleptic Insomniac,Dec 12 2007, 02:09 AM]Catholic, christian, muslim, they all believe in some kinda god.QUOTE]

Is the same god actually.

[QUOTE=QueenieKai,Dec 12 2007, 02:17 AM]

I've been pretty "GOD IS BAD" in the past too, so sorry for that.

Edit: I don't believe in a God.[/QUOTE]

What God?

Those of you with no belief, fallow me in the journey of knowledge.

Read from multiple news sources accepting that all may hold a fragment of bias, read Google RSS as Yahoo RSS and NEVER take anything a news source says (or a person for that matter) as 100% fact.....

After doing all this for a period of time... have your eyes awaken at how your future as mine as ALL OF OURS is very bleak...

I believe there is a ghost that follows me around and hides my shit then puts it back in a place that I've already looked.

DAMN YOU JEEAYYYSUS

This is only one debate :???:

...it isn't even really a debate.

Depends on your knowledge and lack of knowledge in what you are actually saying. Your question in itself is flawed theologically which goes to show that you really know nothing of religion.

I thought that this was the basics, little child stuff, but I guess I will have to inform you. We are made in the image and likeness of God. This does not mean we exactly look like him but rather we have reason, and free will. Everything at one point was infact perfect, so in the end it wasn't a flawed God, but a temptation and a mistrust of God that led us to what is called "original sin" which is simply put: the tendency to go against Gods will

This is the short of it, you would have not really learned anything in high school or elementary courses on the Catholic church since the curriculum is government made (and one that doesn't care about the proper teaching) and the teachers themselves at best had a year or two in religious studies, if not nothing at all(not usually theology, but an overall course on religious studies). This gives you the deprived and very substantless version of "Christianity" and even less on Catholicism, which does appease logic and reason more than the conglomerate of denominations can vouch for (which of course you wouldn't know since you haven't even tried to check).

The problem about statements like this is the ignorance put into them. For an anti-religious (or something close to it) person, you know very little about your opposition, most of your questions are just childs play. Why don't you actually do some research in the topic of religion and Catholicism and then make logical arguements based on knowlege instead of assumptions. You would be doing yourself a favor, making yourself less ignorant and of higher callibar and class. Here are a few books if you wish to become an actual opponent or an "atheist Apologetic" instead of a boisterous young adult blowing out hot air. Good luck on your reading, next time I hear a arguement, I will only respond if you have actually done your homework. Until then do yourself a favor and keep to what you know more about.

(and for you mom saying you are going to hell, she must have not done much reading into this herself because of the consequences of condemning someone)

*= i read

Book lists:
*The Catholic Catechism of the Church (you will have all our beliefs just layed out in front of you, lots for you to look at and possible material for making arguments)

*The Bible (I assume you never read it, so that means you will have a wealth of information in forming your mind on what to argue. It is best to take the bible with the Catechism)

*How Catholicism build the West (I highly recommend this book for you, it lays out the catholic history and accomplishments. It also has a pretty big referance page, including anti-catholic texts)

*Faith of the Early Fathers, 3 vols.
William A. Jurgens, ed. (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970)
(This is a very good text, it has wittings all the way back from the first century, the the fact that the Catholic church has accomplished what no other organization can can say, it has, in its entirety, not changed)

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Ludwig Ott (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1992)
(To help your understanding of the Catholic Theology)

Mass Confusion: The Do’s and Don’ts of Catholic Worship
Jimmy Akin (San Diego, CA: Catholic Answers, 1998)
(more wealth of information)

God and the Cosmologists
Stanley Jaki (Washington, DC: Regnery Gateway Press, 1989)
(Proof that Catholics are not uneducated inbreds and hicks)

*The Edge of Evolution
Michael Behe
(A text talking about that evolution exists and its limits, it is geared towards a secular audience, if you can read this, than I congratulate you)

Also, the God of Catholics and Muslims are quite different. Catholics believe in an infinitely simple natured being ,God, because nothing can be detracted or taken away from him. It is in his infinite simplicity that we have a hard time understanding what he is all about. The Muslims believe in a God that is very complex, no one can ever know anything about him because he may change his mind whenever he wants. There are no rules or regulations and the only reason why things are working as they do now is because he feels like it. For Christians (aka, a term taken by incomplete Catholics, it was at one point a word for just Catholics), that is a hard one to say, there are literally thousands upon thousands of denominations, each with at least one view different than the next. Some are so totally absurd that they have a completely different God, if not a flawed concept of him.

Don'tcha know, the internets are not church, and neither is pc0.

Religious preachings just make me yawn and crack open another beer, or whatever.

"Crack" open a beer?

Redneck.

I buy beer because I sort of like it and no one else around here wants it, so no one steals any. Except for my brother Mike, he doesn't live here but yesterday he was here and he drank like three while I wasn't even home, and last week he was here and he just took like 3 home with him, that's half the friggin case!

Is Mike back at Bethany this year?

No he rents a house on Idiwyld with like 4 other people.

Your post is too long for me to read. Summarize.

It's just the same kind of stuff he posts all over the place

I like to think that at one point in time there was a god and he existed in nothingness and had no purpose. So he exploded himself to have purpose and made matter which evolved into other things. So basically god is 'dead' and we're on our own. Thinking that there is a higher being to take care of us when we fuck up is stupid. god is not a parent. He doesn't punish us for doing bad and he doesn't reward us because he's finished whatever he was supposed to do.

Not completely what I think, I just like to play around with that idea the most. An alternate idea to him being 'dead' is that his 'will' is inside matter and he creates change(evolution)....

Reincarnation sounds the best. Spending an eternity doing anything(heaven, hell) sounds horrible. Dying then forgetting everything sounds like a nice break.

I would go insane in a place so righteous as heavan, (on the rare occasion I was actually considered for it), and I would get bored of hell very fast, I assume.

I'd just like to die and have my soul wander around and scare the shit out of other people. B)

I think of heaven as a place where it fulfills your life's desires. To a good end, of course, but still whatever you desire in life.

For example, when I was younger, I imagined heaven as being a place where I could catch Pokemon, because that's what I was into at the time.

And if heaven is like that... I'm in.

I feel stupid for just posting stuff... just know that I'm doing this out of boredom and not opinion. This probably has nothing to do with anything.

Religious institutions are a great tool in the forming of conventional moral development ( Kohlberg's stages of moral development). It's a really nifty thing that shows you how to be good as defined by the religion by following all the rules of the religion. Even if everything in religion is crap it fulfills its purpose just by creating small social order.

You have to look at the purpose of something before judging it. Looking at what a religion says, though this might sound weird, isn't the best way of looking at it. You must understand what it's doing.

I think we need to take a step back and stop letting institutions take precedence over ideas. We shouldn't be arguing "which ideological view is right" but rather separate who we are and what we do from ideologies. We are doing a great injustice by not realizing we don't need someone or something telling us what to do in order to be good. And we are doing a further injustice by criticizing other's ideologies. Grow up.

That's my shit for brains hard at work for you.

My Beliefs are:

1)If you're a generally good person (Dont go around stealing, killing and defrauding) then you shouldn't have to worry, if there is a God he should realize you're a pretty god person and be happy with you, there probably isn't but whatever

2) Religious people are fine as long as they're not trying to convert you/ proclaiming their shit. Unfortunately this seems to be hard for some, but I've met others who are pretty cool.


Summary: As long as you're not an evil person you've got nothing to worry about and I'll repect your beliefs if you respect mine

You say you've got nothing to worry about as long as you're a good person. I say, how can you tell? No one has the right to say what God's going to do. On one hand, yeah, goodness can count for something. On the other hand, it DOES say in the bible that you're going to hell if you don't believe in God. So what we have is this- NO ONE KNOWS WHAT GOD IS GOING TO DO. I say it's best to be safe and believe in SOMETHING cuz I'd sure hate to die and be wrong. But if you don't want to believe, well, that's your perogative.

Believing in god out of fear is kind of dumb, although I guess most people do that. If there is a god, I really don't think he would punish people for not believing in him. Like once you die and you're sitting in hell, YOU'LL DEFINITELY BELIEVE IN HIM. Plus, someone who stole a candy bar in 4th grade shouldn't go to the same place as someone who has murdered dozens of people. Having regret for the bad things you've done should be good enough if there is some sort of heaven.

And I mean, it's kind of god's own fault for not showing up once and a while, what are we supposed to think? I can't believe blindly, it really doesn't seem logical to me to believe in something when there isn't really much proof. That's why I like to think that there was a god, but he's dead now. It explains how we got here, and why there's so much bullshit in the world. God's a creator, not a maintainer.... I don't think even god could make something out of nothing, he had to have sacrificed himself. But then that goes back to 'what made god', 'what made the thing that made god' and then an infinite loop of that afterwards.

But it also makes complete sense for a being to create the concept of god once it reaches a certain level of intelligence. Like a hominid probably killed an animal, then started wondering what happened to the animal's conscious thought after it died. Eventually it would come to a concept like 'god'. Even children start going 'what happens when you die?' once they understand what death is. A lot of people just can't cope with there being absolutely nothing after they die. Some people probably couldn't go on living normally if they knew there was nothing, and they would probably become obsessed with the thought of their existence completely ending at any moment. I'm not really trying to imply that god was created as a coping device... but that's all he is to some people.

So I guess I think that it's logical for people to believe in god, but absolutely everything people believe about god is illogical?

And I believe that the bible is a steamy pile of misinterpreted bullshit.

^what she said.

What happens after we die? No one wants to think, you're dead, and therefore God is created :dance: :dance:

And yes the Bible is corrupt

When you die, you get buried.

In China, we believe that when you live a good and honest life, you get to reincarnate into another life. If you were a bad person, you get reincarnated as a "lowly animal" and get killed.

Personally, I think that religion is a source of motivation. "If you don't do good, God will be mad and he will send you to Hell" I think that's almost brainwash. If you want to do the world some good, do it because you mean it. Do it because you want to help people, but don't do it because you're afraid of an ultimatum.

But then again, whatever floats people's boats.

There are some people who can do good and be completely happy with getting nothing in return---some people are selfless like that. But there are also people who can't get motivated otherwise.

So I guess religion has it's pro's and con's.